MIDI Interface & Timing

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:41 pm

I've been using the Radias as a MIDI interface for the rest of my gear for years now. I'm using Cubase 4 Studio 4 on Mac OS X 10.6 (Snow Leopard), with a MoTU MIDI TimePiece MK II patch bay.

I'm using the MIDI Out functionality to send MIDI clock and sequence data to the rest of my gear. I've noticed strange behaviour with both my ESX and ES-1 that never used to happen.

I tried taking the MIDI patch bay out and going straight from the Radias MIDI Out to the ESX MIDI In, and the problem persists.

Generally the electribe(s) stay in time for the first few minutes of performance, but then either goes really slow, or stops altogether. Sometimes the Play/Stop button goes off. Even weirder, the Electribe will often stop and start (at various tempos) on its own.

I've noticed that the tempo will 'jog' when I adjust knobs on the Radias. For example the other day I was moving the LFO1 Rate (for some dubstep crazyness) and it was as if each message caused by that knob was advancing the clock and being interpreted as a clock message.
This happens to both my ES1 and ESX and persists even after rebooting the aforementioned devices.

I *think* it does not happen with the radias set to internal clock. need to test further..

Question is, has anyone else experienced strange behaviour like this? do I need to invest in a proper MIDI interface (like a newer MTP which has USB)?
I find it odd that I've used the electribe in the past without any other problems.

I haven't entirely ruled out Cubase although I do note that turning the clock to only go to MIDI Out or Sound alone might alleviate the problem. It's just weird!
Any other ideas?

Doomy · Post by **Doomy** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:33 pm

I think you could do a series of simple tests that would rule out all links of the chain one by one using midi through sockets. Starting from the basic test like connecting cubase to the timepiece, timep. to the radias then radias to the electribes through the "midi through" socket. If the problem persists that would definitely exclude that the radias is sending strange messages (a device can not send anything through the socket). Then get out radias from the chain and connect the electribes, then exchanging their places. If they are clear it means that something is going on with computer software or the MOTU interface.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:46 pm

Doomy wrote:I think you could do a series of simple tests that would rule out all links of the chain one by one using midi through sockets. Starting from the basic test like connecting cubase to the timepiece, timep. to the radias then radias to the electribes through the "midi through" socket. If the problem persists that would definitely exclude that the radias is sending strange messages (a device can not send anything through the socket). Then get out radias from the chain and connect the electribes, then exchanging their places. If they are clear it means that something is going on with computer software or the MOTU interface.

Good idea and advice but I think you misunderstood my situation.

Radias is currently the only USB enabled MIDI interface I have. I am using it with both In and Out connected to the MoTU to drive the rest of my rig. There definitely isn't a MIDI feedback/loop issue there as I've tested that and I know that the port is set specifically NOT to send data back to the Radias. I have all the ports set in a kind of "copy to all other ports excluding the same-numbered output" setup.

And I tested it coming straight out of the Radias into the Electribe.

I think next I'll try with the Radias' Internal clock, and I'll try a different DAW like Ableton, see if it still occurs

Doomy · Post by **Doomy** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:55 pm

I see

. Well If you guarantee that there is no unwanted feedback anywhere in the chain that means either software or radias is the culprit. But if the radias is sending those strange messages it must send it also not being connected to the external sequencer. So as the last test when you run out of ideas and there is no clue where is the problem you could connect radias to the electribe using midi out, electribe midi through to the computer sequencer, then write down with the sequencer the performance and if the problem happens just write down the timing then check what was recorded zooming the time it happended.

Anyway it's easier to figure out the problem when you got gear on the table. It's not the easiest setup

you are using. I hope it's not the radias though.

regards

axxim · Post by **axxim** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:25 pm

Hi X-Trade,

may I ask if you have ruled out the MIDI cables? They often like to get broken just at the solder cup in the DIN connector and may work intermitent sometimes.

If I understand well, your setup is:
Mac--(USB)-->Radias--(MIDI)-->MoTU==(MIDI)==>other devices
Mac<--(USB)--Radias<--(MIDI)--MoTU<==???

If this is the case, may I ask what you use the Radias MIDI-in for?

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:54 pm

axxim wrote:Hi X-Trade,

may I ask if you have ruled out the MIDI cables? They often like to get broken just at the solder cup in the DIN connector and may work intermitent sometimes.

If I understand well, your setup is:
Mac--(USB)-->Radias--(MIDI)-->MoTU==(MIDI)==>other devices
Mac<--(USB)--Radias<--(MIDI)--MoTU<==???

If this is the case, may I ask what you use the Radias MIDI-in for?

Yeah, that's about right.
I use the MIDI in for keyboards. I use a KARMA workstation as my master keyboard. I need to get sync out to all sound modules, and I need to be able to play sound modules from one or more MIDI keyboards. In this case the KARMA is set up similarly to the radias except it is on external clock.
I don't have the Radias-KB so a master controller is always necessary. I use sounds from the KARMA as well so it gets MIDI in so that I can pass MIDI from other keyboards.

It's generally worked well for me for quite a while. But I've had this problem for quite a while too (but I'm sure it used to work OK). a MIDI cable might indicate this, yes. I'll try a different one. The one on the Electribe at the moment is brand new with gold plated connectors but quite short and could have been stretched.

Weirdest thing is when it stops & starts on its own accord even when the sequencer isn't running.

Doomy · Post by **Doomy** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:14 am

hey

!

As Axxim suggest try not to close the midi circuit. Just one way connection for the midi signal that is only the way down.

Karma-MIDI(one way connection)-MOTU-MIDI(-one way connection)-Modules

Mac -USB(both ways connection)-Radias- MiDI(one way)- MoTU -MIDI(one way)-Modules

Double or triple check MOTU settings

Doomy · Post by **Doomy** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:47 am

I got to admit I haven't had such problems. Even haven't heard of such things and I have been using midi since 1995, well I usually hook up up to 4 pieces of gear and i am using rather passive midi through boxes. Looks like some strange spontaneus wandering MIDI signals in your circuits

.

Doomy · Post by **Doomy** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:13 am

Hehe sorry for multiple posts just the case doesn't let me walk away like a good puzzle. Just was wondering whether ground loop somewhere in the midi circuit could cause the effects you experience. That reminds me of my problems with DMX I had few years ago. Everybody said you do not need anything at the end of a line since contemporary devices can put out the signal. With my setup miracles happaned the devices were going like they were alive until I used the line terminator at the end of the line. This is not the case with MIDI. Every device should have optoisolators on the signal lines and ground should be lifted.

axxim · Post by **axxim** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:26 pm

Hmm..
AFAIK is the Karma a workstation. I suppose you use the Radias as master controller due its USB-MIDI port to get acces to/from your Mac. I would say the better option is to use the Karma as the master, attach it over a MIDI-USB (about 10 EUR) to your Mac (In and Out). Parallel you have the Radias via USB (In and Out) and attach the others to the Thru of the Radias.

I am not sure if the Radias will always manage and/or merge the two ports (MIDI ans USB_MIDI) without limitations.

Even if I haven't such a large equipment like you, I have my VP-770 attached to the Radias MIDI-In, from the Radias MIDI-Thru it goes to my PC via MIDI (I still have my old good soundcard with MIDI).From the PCs MIDI-Out it goes to the VP-In. The Radias is also connected to my DAW via USB. This way I can play the Radias with my VP, even if my DAW is turned off.

Here is my connection setup:

VP770_OUT ---(MIDI)--> IN_Radias_THRU --(MIDI)-->IN_PC
VP770_IN <--(MIDI)---OUT_PC
Radias_I/O<USB>PC

If I need to attach another slaves (what will it be?) probably I would attach them to the VP's MIDI_Thru or Radias MIDI_Out, being only accessible via the settings in Cubase or I just buy another USB-MIDI converter and have them all connected to my DAW, patching the In and Out ports via Cubase. This way each unit will be editable and accessible.

I never use the Radias tempo due it's fuzzy adjusting. The VP is the master KB, the Radias can always be accessed via the Sound Editor while Cubase controls tempo and music. Having more than one master is a weird job to get working.[/code]

Re-Member · Post by **Re-Member** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:12 pm

axxim wrote:I am not sure if the Radias will always manage and/or merge the two ports (MIDI ans USB_MIDI) without limitations.

My SH-201 has this issue. If I set it to be synced with a DAW by USB MIDI, the MIDI OUT/THRU ports become disabled and I can't sync anything else to it.

If the Radias is being slaved by USB via the "Auto" MIDI tempo sync setting, it might juggling between the DAW's tempo and it's internal tempo, thus causing confusion for the other devices you're trying to slave to it from the standard MIDI ports.

I would try the Radias hooked up via USB MIDI on it's own being slaved specifically to the DAW, having your MoTU MIDI TimePiece MK II connected seperately also slaved to the DAW, then finally connecting all your other gear to the MoTU that use standard MIDI plugs and slaving them it to.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:10 pm

I'm surprised by how difficult it seems to explain my setup...

One of the features on the Radias is the ability to address the MIDI In and MIDI Out ports separately to the sound engine and its control surface, allowing you to use it as a MIDI interface.

I am sending clock from my DAW to the ports RADIAS MIDI Out and RADIAS Sound.
Radias is set to External (USB) clock

MTP is basically used to distribute MIDI from the MIDI Out of the Radias and KARMA to all modules (and only clock from the Radias).

Ports on the MTP are configured such that for example IN3 is routed to OUTs 1,2,4,5,6,7,8.

The only to devices that have both In and Out connected are Radias and KARMA. That allows me to use sounds from both from my DAW or the KARMA's combis or sequencer songs (sequencer can run with a bit of juggling around of cables and settings).

It looks to me like I might need a dedicated MIDI interface - the newer MTP's have built in USB for 8in/8out MIDI interfacing and routing. I think I'd prefer that to an additional (but cheaper) standalone MIDI interface.

But the Radias itself is never using internal clock. it is only using and passing through clock from the DAW. Unfortunately I don't have any other USB MIDI interface to test.
The Electribe performs absolutely fine if the Radias does run on internal clock.

This is perhaps a software issue on the Radias with its USB and Internal merging to the Out port.

I'm going to try a few troubleshooting things tonight. It is annoying though as I've recently integrated most of my core kit into a single flightcase (designed for dual DJ turntables with 19" rack mixer in the centre - where my Radias now resides), so it's difficult to get at some things...
I'm still puzzled that it appears it used to work fine and works when using internal clock from any other devices.

zalo · Post by **zalo** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:18 pm

On the Radias,

[EDIT/YES], [GLOBAL], [VOICE/UNISON]

Make sure Routing is set to USB. This disconnects the Radias itself from sending MIDI signals out the MIDI plugs but keeps the USB to MIDI plug connection alive.

In your DAW make sure you do not have any routings that include the RADIAS KBD/KNOB port routing back out to RADIAS MIDI OUT.

Disconnect the Karma MIDI out plug, test the system out with no live playing. Borrow a MIDI keyboard and attach it to the now unplugged MIDI cable that was once attached to the Karma. Make sure the new keyboard only sends out Note and CC data.

http://www.snoize.com/MIDIMonitor/

Spy on your Radias MIDI OUT port. This way you can see if your DAW/Comp is throwing out some weird messages for some reason.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:40 pm

Thanks for the tip-off on the MIDI monitor. I knew I'd need one but wasn't aware of one for the Mac that I could use.

I've just had about an hour troubleshooting this...
It's a bit difficult as inevitably, it seemed mostly fine whilst I was testing it, except for when navigating away from Cubase and back again on the mac, the MIDI monitor showed that it was sending song position & start messages, then a few seconds later sending a Stop message (even though with 'send clock in stop mode' turned off, it still sent clock messages till I hit stop).
There are no newer versions of cubase.

I did have it hang up and start behaving funny once, electribe stopping and starting randomly at different tempos. I didn't see anything on the MIDI monitor though and rebooting the Radias solved the issue.

I've tried the Routing option set to USB, as well as my usual USB+MIDI setting. Not sure if it makes a difference. Both worked as expected but I noticed unreliable behaviour in both modes, including being unable to trigger notes from the Electribe using the Radias 16 keys intermittently, and sometimes drum hits being triggered at note-off instead of note-on.
This was all with just a single connection from Radias OUT to Electribe IN.

Also entered a state where the Electribe's tempo dropped out to about 20PBM and would speed up only whilst I tweaked the Radias' knobs. This seemed more prevalent in USB+MIDI mode. It could be some bad handling of the MIDI merging or some kind of buffering problem on the USB-MIDI interface in the Radias' firmware.

No pending updates for Cubase and I've recently installed the latest Korg driver in trying to fix this.
Next I'll be trying sync in Ableton..