HELP sustain problem !

[Big Bear]

When I use the sustain pedal the sound keeps playing.
I would like that it fades out by pressing the sustain pedal.

I have already tried to programm in amp1 and amp2, but then the sound decreases also by playing the keyboard without sustain.

Is there a solution by programming the setup of sustain pedal?
I hope you can help me out here !

Thanks a lot for any of your suggestions

[JPROBERTLA]

I suspect the sustain pedal ploarity is not set correctly. Go into global mode and find the sustain pedal settings page/tab. Change the sustain pedal polarity of opposite of what it is now. This should correct it. Don't forget to save the global settings, or when you turn it off the change will not be there when you turn it back on.

[QuiRobinez]

EDIT: If you just want standard sustain behaviour then the tip of the polarity is the way to go.


If you want to influence the AMP EG based on your sustain pedal (sound design purpose) then you need the following approach:

in the AMP EG subtab from a program you can setup the sustain of a sound, now you want to decrease the sustain amount based on the position of your sustain pedal.

I'm not sure if the pedal is an AMS source, but if it is then on that page you see a section called: TIME MODULATION
Here you can setup up till 3 ams sources to modulate the time parameters of your AMP EG. Now select the sustain pedal as an AMS source and enter a negative amount in the decay, slope and release values.

That should do the trick in theory, however if the sustain parameter is not available as an ams source here you could try to create that behaviour with the AMS mixer or by using aftertouch, or any other parameter.

[Big Bear]

No, it's not in this global/pedal setting!
Most of THE sounds are reacting well, but a few instruments like strings, violins are different. They sound as long you hold THE Sustain pedal.

After pressing the sustainpedal THE sound should decrease.
How to change this.

Hope you will help more. And . . . Thanks a lot!

[QuiRobinez]

Most of THE sounds are reacting well, but a few instruments like strings, violins are different. They sound as long you hold THE Sustain pedal.

After pressing the sustainpedal THE sound should decrease.
How to change this.

that's standard behaviour. If you hold the sustain pedal then the ADSR EG is used. The level of the sound when holding the sustain pedal is determined by the Sustain value of the EG.

maybe this is an article that could help you understand how the ADSR works on a synthesizer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthesizer#ADSR_envelope

Now the hard part on the Kronos is that there are engines (like the mod 7) that also uses there own GE's (per oscillator) with their own adsr settings. So sometimes you have to modify the settings in that area.

[Big Bear]

I think it's not understanding the principe of ADSR.

For example on my Tyros3:
By pressing the sustainpedal the sound in decreasing till off after a few seconds.
By pressing sustainpedal on the Korg strings they keep sounding and building till maximum voices is reached.

The good ideas of qrobinez didn't work for sustain, so far I 've tried.

Maybe still suggestions to solve this problem!

[AMR]

I think it's not understanding the principe of ADSR.

For example on my Tyros3:
By pressing the sustainpedal the sound in decreasing till off after a few seconds.
By pressing sustainpedal on the Korg strings they keep sounding and building till maximum voices is reached.

The good ideas of qrobinez didn't work for sustain, so far I 've tried.

Maybe still suggestions to solve this problem!

Actually, in some Yamaha models (the consumer and semi-pro consumer keyboards - quite good actually), the "sustain" should be called "release", because, apparently, it's that part of the envelope (the release slope) that is actually affecting, not the sustain.

Kind Regards,
AMR
http://www.alvaromrocha.com

[Phabius]

You're right AMR.

Many digital pianos, like the Kawai ES1 and MP9000 I have here for example, have this different behavior of the sustain pedal, so string patches can be layered with piano patches and the "sustain" of the string sounds follow the natural decay of the piano when the pedal is pressed. I guess this is what is causing the confusion here.

[ronnfigg]

Yes Big Bear, you need to understand the concepts of the ADSR. The sustain portion is a "level" function, not a time function, like the rest of the elements of the ADSR event. sustain refers to the level a note will sound as long a a key is depressed. What you want is a way to control the release portion of the envelope, and I think the MIDI spec has a CC for it, but most manufacturers don't implement it. What you are obviously trying to do is use the pedal like a piano damper pedal. It works on Kronos piano sounds because they samples and their is no true "sustain" segment on a piano sound. Just like a real piano, the note decays, even when holding a key down or using the damper pedal.
I hope this helped clarify it for you.

[ronnfigg]

Yes Big Bear, you need to understand the concepts of the ADSR. The sustain portion is a "level" function, not a time function, like the rest of the elements of the ADSR event. sustain refers to the level a note will sound as long a a key is depressed. What you want is a way to control the release portion of the envelope, and I think the MIDI spec has a CC for it, but most manufacturers don't implement it. What you are obviously trying to do is use the pedal like a piano damper pedal. It works on Kronos piano sounds because they samples and their is no true "sustain" segment on a piano sound. Just like a real piano, the note decays, even when holding a key down or using the damper pedal.
I hope this helped clarify it for you.

[ronnfigg]

PS- sorry about the double post. To wrap it up, the damper pedal is not really a damper pedal like on a real piano. When you use it, it tells the synth to go to the sustain portion of the envelope and act as if you are still holding a key down. Since most sounds other than percussive ones have a sustain portion, this is what the sustain pedal acts on. So your Kronos is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. Bottom line- a sustain pedal is not a damper pedal.

[1jordyzzz]

big bear, do you want to makes synth, strings on kronos fades if you release the key and hold the sustain???
actually, that's the behavior i like... the kronos behavior is the same in every korg keyboard, and the roland RD series.. sometimes it's great, but sometimes i don't need it... my yamaha PSR is not having that behavior (same as tyros). you press a note (string sound), you press the sustain, and release the note... the sound will fade as if it's a piano sound (being sustained, or the release time on the envelope being stretched)
i do understand the concept of ADSR envelope.... with string sounds, what kronos did, is prolonging the sustain time when we press the sustain pedal (it will sound continuously when we press the sustain pedal.. but what yamaha psr & tyros did, is stretching the release time of the sound.. it will result in the string sound (or any other continuous stop) being decayed overtime until a complete silence (like a piano)
to make it simple, this is the envelope condition when sustain pressed=
Kronos = A D SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS (R when we release the sustain
Yamaha = A D S R R R R R R RR R R R R then complete silence
The yamaha's behavior is something that i like (on certain conditions).. because (for example with kronos) if we run fast arpeggios across the keyboard with a layer sound (maybe piano + string), the string will sustain in all the notes that we have pressed (maybe including wrong notes also ), it doesn't sound good... moreover, it eats up polyphony...

could somebody that has deep knowledge of kronos explains how we create similiar yamaha's behavior on kronos??

[.Jens]

could somebody that has deep knowledge of kronos explains how we create similiar yamaha's behavior on kronos??

That's quite easy.

Version 1:
First, in the specific combi (midi filter tab) uncheck "damper" on the string timbre - to let the string sound ignore the hold pedal completely. Afterwards set the release time to the value of taste to let any string note decay slowly. This is an quick and easy option, but has one drawback: The behaviour of the string sound will be the same regardless of pressing the sustain pedal or not. But it's suitable IMHO for most typical piano/string layer applications. Try it out.

Version 2:
I don't have the Kronos at hand, but it's generally possible to change ADSR values by AMS. Even if you uncheck the damper in the midi filter, it should be possible to access the damper as AMS source - maybe you have to work it around a bit via AMS mixers. This way you could tweak the ADSR curve to adapt the behaviour. But I have to admit that I didn't try that yet.

Version 3:
Layer the strings and the piano together within one HD-1 engine. This will not work with the SGX pianos, but it will let the two layered sounds share exactly the same envelope - whatever it will be.

Version 4 (last, but NOT least):
In the ADSR curve, just set the sustain level to 0 and use a long decay instead - match the time to that of the piano. If there is an intended "overshoot" in the envelope to form the attack portion, you may have to experiment with the parameters to re-build this portion. But remember there is also a 5th "break" parameter, so this should be easily possible as well.

[QuiRobinez]

to make it simple, this is the envelope condition when sustain pressed=
Kronos = A D SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS (R when we release the sustain
Yamaha = A D S R R R R R R RR R R R R then complete silence

great explanation!

I've never seen this behaviour on any synth, but basicly what you are saying is that the sound adsr stage behaves like the damper pedal on a piano instead of the sustain pedal (which holds the sound untill the sustain phase is finished).

just out of interest, in which case would you like this damper behaviour, i can't think of a real time where i want to use it this way, but there probably is a good reason where you want to use it that way.


This behaviour can be programmed in the sound by going to the AMP EG subtab from a program where you can setup the decay and release of a sound, now you want to decrease the release amount based on the position of your sustain pedal then you have to assign a pedal to the 'assignable pedal jackplug' on the back of your kronos. Now the pedal is an assignable AMS resource (see the manual for details on this).

then assign your pedal at the section TIME MODULATION on the AMP EG Subtab as an AMS source and enter a negative amount in the Release value.

Then you will get the behaviour as on the Tyros.

Personally i wouldn't use it that way and just uncheck the Damper function in the midi filter tab of that sound so that it doesn't react on the Damper. So that the sustain can be used in a normal Synth way.

But it can be done through the AMS modification source on Time modulation if someone wants this behaviour.

[.Jens]

... that the sound adsr stage behaves like the damper pedal on a piano instead of the sustain pedal (which holds the sound untill the sustain phase is finished).

In fact, a sustain pedal and the damper pedal (in the terminology we are talking about here) are exactly the same - it's just the names which cause confusion. The behaviour of both pedals is the same: as long as a key is pressed or the damper/sustain is held, the sound goes through the ADS part of the envelope (pressing the sustain pedal does not advance to the sustain part, skipping attack and decay!). After releasing both the key and the sustain pedal, the release portion of the envelope comes into play.

The difference between the behaviour of synth-like and piano sounds lies in different envelopes: A piano sound does not have any sustain part of it's envelope, when analysing the sound. It's only a quite long decay portion. If in a specific synth engine the ADSR curve does have a sustain level > 0, this is only because the decay is already contained in the sample (non normalized samples, here).

To mimic this behaviour for strings, which in reality can have infinite sustain (apart from changes in bowing direction and the need of the player to eat, drink and sleep ), you just have to set the sustain level to zero and make the decay longer. That's it in fact. The only problem which may arise is that the original sound (designer) uses the decay portion of the envelope for other purposes already.

Jens