8-bit on the radias.. well more likely 24 -bit

cibine · Post by **cibine** » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:36 pm

I just wanted to share these two 8-bit style tracks made on the radias. They
were made for a game related presentation at siggraph last year ...

http://soundcloud.com/f-circuit/wackanoid-c64
http://soundcloud.com/f-circuit/wackanoid-lowfi

Both tracks where recorded straight from the radias with no external fx apart from a limiter in the master channel in the DAW. The tracks where made by laying down the rhythm and drum changes and then live recording the other sounds and on top. in some cases i made mistakes and the rhythm goes of beat but it doesn't actually sound that bad!

o well while i m on it... I made an abstract noise recording with the monotribe and monotron.. here it goes:

http://soundcloud.com/f-circuit/ear-cleaner

enjoy:)

CharlesFerraro · Post by **CharlesFerraro** » Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:23 pm

ah, awesome! c64 really sounds 8-bit. Purists would call your songs "fake-bit" since they're not made with nanoloop or lsdj etc.

Did you just slap a decimator on the individual tracks? I did an 8-bit project with a friend once where I tried to use the RADIAS but the sounds were just too "good" and reverted to sampling simple square wave arps with the DS-10

cibine · Post by **cibine** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:16 pm

o god i hope I didn't offend an 8-bit purist

I guess i should have named it more like 8-bit style. But anyway this is just a style made with non 8 bit instruments so yes you wont get the gameboy or c64 grittiness.

I did use quite a bit of the waveshaping on the radias and tried to emulate the pitch oscillation that you can hear in a lot of the tracks. The brief for the tracks was to make something close to Rob Hubbard so that was the closest i could get in 2 days (with the wackanoid 64)

What I like with the sound that comes out of the radias is that it almost makes a new 8 bit sound - you get the effect that resembles the 8-bit music but crispier, cleaner and with a really big harmonic range. Obviously the result is different though.

3DOFan · Post by **3DOFan** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:08 pm

Your arps are pretty spot on, but you seem to be using too many effects or filters. If you truly desire 8 bit, try using more unconvential methods, like abusing the decimator and the hardclip and cross modulation ring and ring and sync modulation if you desire more "8 bit sounds" people wouldn't be able to call it "fake-bit" if you did that. I've done something 16 bit with the korg r3 to showcase its abilities, so I'm sure your radias should be able to do an even more impressive job.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diqyorZA ... ature=plcp

cibine · Post by **cibine** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:52 pm

Thanks for the feedback. well I guess i should rename the thread to 24 -bit then

The inspiration was from 8-bit c64 music and also the techniques i tried to emulate, but i guess you get a different sound with different instruments. and i m pretty happy with the sound i got from the radias - because you get a the game feel but its also more high def so its easy on the ears.

3DOFan · Post by **3DOFan** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:07 pm

I suppose, lol. But usually what people look for in the 8 bit is that distorted yet strangely pure grit it usually has. did you like my demo btw?

cibine · Post by **cibine** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:29 pm

heh seems you got some critisism:) yeah it was really funny rmx you did. I liked it but i think it might be better to take the actual vocals out

thehighesttree · Post by **thehighesttree** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:34 pm

Love that SID-type sound! Keep at it.

foodeater · Post by **foodeater** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:38 am

cibine wrote: What I like with the sound that comes out of the radias is that it almost makes a new 8 bit sound - you get the effect that resembles the 8-bit music but crispier, cleaner and with a really big harmonic range. Obviously the result is different though.

I'm with you there! I think radias is exceptional for "strange" digital sounds. I mean even younger kids who didn't grow up with 16-bit and earlier video games often find the sounds weird.

ps I like your track ear cleaner too. Is that a radias?

CharlesFerraro · Post by **CharlesFerraro** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:56 am

Did you change the title of this thread? The RADIAS engine runs 16bits internally.

cibine · Post by **cibine** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:11 pm

meeehh,

from wikipedia
"Each DSP chip has up to 600 Millions Multiply-Accumulates Per Second with 16bit fixed point. Which is not to be confused with the audio interface that is a 24 bit processor."

all these numbers confuse me....

always though it was running at 24 bit 48.000 i guess audio interface is the i/o so we are at 24 bit which is actually h ow the radias sounds like...(?)

CharlesFerraro · Post by **CharlesFerraro** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:45 am

After some research I'm not sure where I got the information that the RADIAS has 16bit depth internal processing. Your quote from Wiki also doesn't have a source.

I was trying to think of how to test this... The RADIAS doesn't have a digital out and the DAC is going to smooth the waveform so I can't compare a sample from the unit with a sample from a VST. The preamp is going to determine a lot about the dynamic of the sound... Internally the RADIAS will clip at 0dB whether it's running 16 or 24 bit...

I could sample a really slow waveform with a really high sample rate and try to look for any steppyness in the dynamic range of the waveform. Too bad the RADIAS is band-limited which could hamper conclusive results. I could maybe try to use a really slow LFO or EG to modulate something like pitch and see if the frequency steps as it can be assumed that modulator resolution intensity is governed by the internal bit depth. Still, I wouldn't exactly be sure what I'm looking for in the waveform (how long or frequent should these steps in pitch be?) And I don't think it's possible to "clip" a modulator which does away with that idea.

I don't think there's a way to check or I am not savvy enough to. I also don't think it matters in the end.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:27 pm

Radias is 24bit 48k.

Pretty sure it is in the specs. The decimator IFX also holds a clue. And most if not all of Korg's stuff is 48k

axxim · Post by **axxim** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:47 pm

Just an important fact of signal processing is not only how many bits the data has (the radias DSP has 24 and 16 bit register) but the width of the arithmetic and logic unit ALU (in the radias DSP 40 bit) becauuse this determines when the arithmetic operations have to be truncated. A simple multiplication of two 16 bit values would result in 31 bits if each value is near to its maximum 2^15 (FFFF hexadecimal). So using 24 bits the result must be truncated (rescaled) continously producing a small loss of accuracy. So with audio processing which is an inmense row of arithmetic operations, the art consists in having good processing and arithmetic procedures.

The finest, widest and fastest D/A converters will bring nothing if the mathematical process is poor or inadequate.

At least the personal perception of each one is what makes the difference. Any purist would say that 8 bit sounds are horrible and useless, but each imperfection in every system is what gives the special characteristic of it.

CharlesFerraro · Post by **CharlesFerraro** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:36 am

axxim wrote:Just an important fact of signal processing is not only how many bits the data has (the radias DSP has 24 and 16 bit register) but the width of the arithmetic and logic unit ALU (in the radias DSP 40 bit) becauuse this determines when the arithmetic operations have to be truncated. A simple multiplication of two 16 bit values would result in 31 bits if each value is near to its maximum 2^15 (FFFF hexadecimal). So using 24 bits the result must be truncated (rescaled) continously producing a small loss of accuracy. So with audio processing which is an inmense row of arithmetic operations, the art consists in having good processing and arithmetic procedures.

The finest, widest and fastest D/A converters will bring nothing if the mathematical process is poor or inadequate.

At least the personal perception of each one is what makes the difference. Any purist would say that 8 bit sounds are horrible and useless, but each imperfection in every system is what gives the special characteristic of it.

This is all above my head.

Something I realized with DAC's though, it doesn't matter how slow the waveform is. DAC's use a slew generator/lowpass filter to smooth out the waveform. For some reason I thought if the waveform was going slow enough I could see the individual steps in the slew but I don't think the system works like that. Or maybe it does, like I said I'm not savvy.

I believe the the RADIAS is 24 bit, but I wish there was a way to test this. If I gleaned any info off Axxim's post it seems the bit depth is a part in a greater whole that only offers a rough estimate(...?)

Again whether the system is 24bit or 16bit it doesn't matter. We're talking about a noise floor at least 96 dB away with plenty of resolution, and for electronic instruments that is well beyond the dynamic range we need. We're not talking about sampled pianos here.