How to Simulate Ableton with Kronos?

TiGroove · Post by **TiGroove** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:17 am

Hi,

after I'm glad to own a Kronos I'm looking to get a good workflow on it to use them to perform live partly prearranged electronical stuff together with a singer and guitar player in a flexible way.

How can i do the following:

Imagine there ist a song i wanna perform with the Kronos (playback with Drums, Pads, Fills Breaks and play along some Leads-Epiano etc)
and the Song should not be performed in a fixed sequence, so that I cold be able to let the Intro run twice....

The example song consits of 6 "scenes" (with prearranged Drums, Bass, Arps, Pads, Automation like Filters)
that should be played back BPM- synced to 1 Bar in a live freely arranged way.
( so I wanna let the Intro run twice...or repeat the refrain ..and so on)

- 1. 16 Bar Intro
- 2. 32 Bar Refrain
- 3. 32 Bar verse 1/2
- 4. 4 Bar Fill-In
- 5. 16 Bar Break
- 6. 16 Bar End

The Problem is that the Kronos sequencer is Linear like Cubase etc and not Loop-Based like Ableton.
The Karma scenes can be used for Drums to mute/unmute Live with the Track buttons.. whats fine in general...
but Karma just works AFAIK with Midi ..and not with audio-material(Drum-Loop Sample...)...
Also the Real Time Pattern Function seems to work just with Midi...

So it would be great to use the Track Buttons to switch between different scences (to change with the beginnung of the next Bar)
and to Mute/Unmute Tracks (lets add some percussion within a 16 Bar Break or temporarly Mute the Basedrum ...and so on)

Now comes my question: Do you have an idea to perform like this only with the Kronos and without Ableton and a Laptop on Stage?
Can i lay the scenes as audiofiles within the Sampler and hit some keys to start them synced..but then there would be no chance to
have different Tracks on each scene...?

Thanks for sharing your Ideas.

TiGroove

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:33 am

I'm afraid there isn't a good solution for this on the kronos. You could look into RPPR which basicly is a pattern assigned to a note. But to keep these things in sync live is quite hard. furthermore you have to keep the note pressed to hear the RPPR pattern.

It would have been nice if the sequencer would have the same pattern setup as the Yamaha Motif, the motif is pattern based and song based.

My suggestion for going live with the kronos without a laptop, is to use an ipad for this. Then you could use a pattern sequencer on the ipad to use with your kronos. Because the ipad has a great integration with the kronos this is a very stable setup.

You could check out the Genome sequencer app for the ipad (or any of the other apps, there are a lot of them.

Other solution would be to keep ableton live and use a novation livepad with that or the akai APC40. Then you can use Ableton with the kronos sounds.

simur · Post by **simur** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:37 am

QuiRobinez wrote:...

My suggestion for going live with the kronos without a laptop, is to use an ipad for this. Then you could use a pattern sequencer on the ipad to use with your kronos. Because the ipad has a great integration with the kronos this is a very stable setup.

You could check out the Genome sequencer app for the ipad (or any of the other apps, there are a lot of them.

...

Hi,
I have the same feeling about this. I was looking for a good step / pattern sequencer for iPad (with Kronos) . Does the Genome sequencer have the "scene" feature like Ableton? I couldn't get clearly from the description in the app store.

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:47 am

simur wrote:
QuiRobinez wrote:...

My suggestion for going live with the kronos without a laptop, is to use an ipad for this. Then you could use a pattern sequencer on the ipad to use with your kronos. Because the ipad has a great integration with the kronos this is a very stable setup.

You could check out the Genome sequencer app for the ipad (or any of the other apps, there are a lot of them.

...
Hi,
I have the same feeling about this. I was looking for a good step / pattern sequencer for iPad (with Kronos) . Does the Genome sequencer have the "scene" feature like Ableton? I couldn't get clearly from the description in the app store.

yes is has something comparable called 'Remix Pads', there is a demo of this function on youtube.

the remix pads demo that is available can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TExStJYHk6w

I will see if i can do some tests to see how we can use this app with the kronos for pattern based performances and if it's a good solution for musicians that perform live. I will create a demo with the app and kronos on youtube this week with my findings.

simur · Post by **simur** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:06 am

Thanks Qui!! It seems to have this feature and maybe to be more intuitive than Ableton too...

I am looking forward to seeing your demo. Do you think it is possible to merge midi patterns streamed from iPad with Karma in a well designed combi?

My idea is to play live only with Kronos , iPad with a Guitarist and a Singer, having the freesom to change the song live, and without being chained to a fixed song.

Karma is great and useful in this sense, but it is very hard to create / arrange quickly a phrase if you want to make a cover. I like the way that Karma can "rearrange" and let you play in a different flavor a cover song, but sometimes you need only the same bass line or a riff.

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:22 am

simur wrote:Thanks Qui!! It seems to have this feature and maybe to be more intuitive than Ableton too...

I am looking forward to seeing your demo. Do you think it is possible to merge midi patterns streamed from iPad with Karma in a well designed combi?

My idea is to play live only with Kronos , iPad with a Guitarist and a Singer, having the freesom to change the song live, and without being chained to a fixed song.

Karma is great and useful in this sense, but it is very hard to create / arrange quickly a phrase if you want to make a cover. I like the way that Karma can "rearrange" and let you play in a different flavor a cover song, but sometimes you need only the same bass line or a riff.

i don't see any problem with using KARMA together with your own patterns in genome. After all, it's just note information that is sent to the KARMA engine, so it will work. I will see if i can include a sample of that function in the video.

TiGroove · Post by **TiGroove** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:04 pm

Hi Qui,

thanks for the fast reply.. yes a Pattern-Mode in sequencer would be helpfull and this was
a feature i expected.

Thats a bit disappointing for me, for the Kronos was so raised in various tests
as absolutely Live-compatible Workstation and Korg has also much experiences in manufactoring of
pattern-based grooveboxes...and then the sequencer ist just linear...

Hopefully Korg-Employes are reading through this Forum...and maybe they will add this feature in a Future Update??

I don't own an IPAD (although it shurely would be cool) and will take advantage of the more powerfull Audio + Midi sequencer of Ableton.
Thats where I'm familar with and will try to remote it with the
Kronos left Hand Control section, to mute and unmute Tracks & start and switch scenes...and so on.

But how ever....now I know, that it won't work just with the Kronos, so I will not put much effort in investigation of the Sequencer and RPPR.

This saves a lot of time...thanks for the answer of a super-user like you

Ksynth · Post by **Ksynth** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:12 pm

Could the Setlist be used for most of this request?

Dedicate one Setlist page to each song?

Break the song up into the various parts each with a Setlist entry?

I probably don't understand th request enough?

TiGroove · Post by **TiGroove** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:19 pm

Although I did not test this yet, but switching between different songs in a setlist will shurely cause a break in the playback and will not be in sync/quantizised time (switching flawlessly to the next bar with no interrupts within the beat/drums etc) .....i gues.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:34 pm

RPPR with chord pads to form scenes or groups seems to be the way forward with this.

RPPR is actually very Ableton-like and good to work with as soon as you get into it, but there are a few issues. For example you either have to hold the key/chord for the duration of playback, or set it such that you have to press it again before pressing the next one - there is no 'choking' of pattern groups.

Sampled audio loops can be converted to patterns, but it would be nice to see it working properly with Audio events/tracks.

Overall it is quite good and has always been, but hasn't changed in at least 10 years.. Like the rest of the sequencer.

So I'm very interested to hear people's suggestions and improvements in this area. I'm currently having to use a laptop with Ableton but I'd like to move away from having to set up a computer on stage.

TiGroove · Post by **TiGroove** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:12 pm

I did some test yesterday to split a song into different Songs and put them into a setlist..this did not work

1. It is not possible to loop a whole Song (i.E. 16 Bar Song)..it stops when It reaches its song length
2.Switching between different songs causes a pause...you always have to press the song and then press play button..there ist not autostart when selecting a song in Setlist..and its not in sync of cause

Suggestion:
So it would be great to implement different Locations (jump Marks) into the Sequencer and the feature to define and name them (Intro is Bar 1-16, Refrain is Bar 17-32...)
and to loop each section/Pattern between its 2 marks.
It continues Looping until you jump in a adjustable sync (switch at the beginning of the next Bar or so) to the Startpoint/Location of the next Pattern and so on. And control the Location-Jumps with the 8 Karma-Scenes Buttons or so. Therefore there would be 8 Pattern/Scenes for each song...(when in Pattern Mode).
These settings could be made within the Master Track.

So Korg needs just a little change on the linear sequencer,
to have great performance possibilities for the "on Stage Electronicmusic prearranged performance Users"

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:15 pm

TiGroove wrote:1. It is no possible to loop a whole Song (i.E. 16 Bar Song)..it stops when It reaches its song length

you can loop a 16 bar song, check my tutorial for an explanation how to do that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djRsZihhSIQ

TiGroove · Post by **TiGroove** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:40 pm

Qui,
how does this work...I did this test with a 4 bar song (each Loop was set from 1 to 4) and after the song reaches its end it stops (after the 4th bar)..there was no jump from bar 4 to 1.....

In your tutorial the looplength was 8 but the songlength was more than 8 bars therfore it could jump from 8 to 9....right...?!?

But even if that would work there will be a break when switching between different songs.

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:04 pm

TiGroove wrote:Qui,
how does this work...I did this test with a 4 bar song (each Loop was set from 1 to 4) and after the song reaches its end it stops (after the 4th bar)..there was no jump from bar 4 to 1.....

In your tutorial the looplength was 8 but the songlength was more than 8 bars therfore it could jump from 8 to 9....right...?!?

But even if that would work there will be a break when switching between different songs.

yes that's true, so you have to set the song length to a longer time then the song you want to perform. As long the song length hasn't reached it's end, the midi track loop will continue to play.

but it's a theoretical discussion indeed, you can't use the kronos sequencer for pattern based performances.