Kronos Choirs User Bank

blinkofanI · Post by **blinkofanI** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:56 am

Boy, what a "dream come true" turning into a nightmare!!

I was asking for an upright piano a couple of months ago. Now, i wonder if that upright is really from the NI Kontakt library and i have Komplete8 with that upright piano in there, would that make it ok to use it in the Kronos? I wouldn't mind deleting it but it's just more conveniant to have it in the Kronos, ready to play at the touch of 3 key presses.

I feel like i met one crazy hot girl, to realize once in bed she's a man!!

Everything in my computer is legit, i won't start cracking stuff in the K. Shoot!!

Blink

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:27 am

I don't think its Dream come true turning into a Nightmare, it is what it is.
No one can blame Dmitry if he did not know where it comes from...on the
other hand he did not try to make money out of it either.

NuSkoolTone · Post by **NuSkoolTone** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:45 am

Sharp wrote:Hi SynthKeyWizard.
Your two demo's “London Choir” and “Boys Choir” sound pretty darn close to the London Choir and Boys Choir from Symphony of Voices.

Can you please easy my worry here and tell me what the source is?
I have received two complains over your content today. One with regards to this upload and a second complain regarding everything your uploading.

Can you please give assurance that the content is 100% legal and your property to share.

Regards
Sharp

See now here I differ. I actually played the two back to back last night before this even came up. While similar I thought they were distinctly different. FWIW I thought SKW's sounded better!

MRedZac · Post by **MRedZac** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:13 am

Sharp wrote:Hi Blink.
I'm not sure anyone can really answer you other than to say that technically you should delete the files.

The original product is called Symphony of Voices.
http://www.spectrasonics.net/products/l ... voices.php

I purchased this library myself many years ago and I've highly recommended it many times over the years here on KORG Forums. In fact I only last mentioned it a few weeks ago.
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=74143

For what it's worth.... It's timeless, and it's the best 500 bucks I ever spent on sounds. I'm not sure why the official website says it's 4 disks though when my copy came with 5. The 5th disk is called Additional Voices.

Regards
Sharp.

It should be considered, that Dimitry lives in and shares from Ukraine - a country in which copyrights are worth as much as a fart...

Ermak · Post by **Ermak** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:11 am

Actually, I'm a little bit confused about the copyright of samples.

For example, if I use the Kronos SGX-1 piano, I automatically use samples that are owned by Korg.

Accordingly, if I record a CD in studio, these samples are indirectly transferred to my CD. Does this mean that selling my own music to a third persion is illegal because Korg owns the samples I used ?

On the other hand, if it is legal to record this using the Kronos, I can also record the samples key by key and sell them. Then I would generate a sample set that could theoretically be used by other synths.

It is unclear to me where the boundary between legal and illegal is.

Biovac · Post by **Biovac** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:12 am

MRedZac wrote:
It should be considered, that Dimitry lives in and shares from Ukraine - a country in which copyrights are worth as much as a fart...

I think this comment could be considered offensive.
If you want, we can talk about what Germany is doing wrong.

SynthKeyWizard · Post by **SynthKeyWizard** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:33 am

MRedZac wrote:
Sharp wrote:Hi Blink.
I'm not sure anyone can really answer you other than to say that technically you should delete the files.

The original product is called Symphony of Voices.
http://www.spectrasonics.net/products/l ... voices.php

I purchased this library myself many years ago and I've highly recommended it many times over the years here on KORG Forums. In fact I only last mentioned it a few weeks ago.
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=74143

For what it's worth.... It's timeless, and it's the best 500 bucks I ever spent on sounds. I'm not sure why the official website says it's 4 disks though when my copy came with 5. The 5th disk is called Additional Voices.

Regards
Sharp.
It should be considered, that Dimitry lives in and shares from Ukraine - a country in which copyrights are worth as much as a fart...

This is very disappointing. For a good thing that I wanted to do and that was a mistake, you punish me with such accusations.

I wrote that I deleted all samples which can violate copyrights. What else should I do?

I apologize to everyone for my mistake.

I am a manager of KORG Ukraine Group. And for me to do bad things consciously - is forbidden. You must understand this.

.Jens · Post by **.Jens** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:59 am

Ermak wrote: Accordingly, if I record a CD in studio, these samples are indirectly transferred to my CD. Does this mean that selling my own music to a third persion is illegal because Korg owns the samples I used ?

Unless you are allowed to to so, it would be illegal, yes. But fortunately, according to the license agreement, this kind of use (recordings of music involving those samples) is permitted by a statement of the copyright owner - at least for non-commercial use.

On the other hand, if it is legal to record this using the Kronos, I can also record the samples key by key and sell them.

No. You can't assume one thing to be legal only if a similar thing is also legal. Usage of copyrighted material is not allowed, unless otherwise stated. If the permission given by the license agreement includes only the use of the samples as "instrument" in a song recording, that does not necessarily cover the distribution of the single samples in form of a sample pack. In most cases, this is even clearly pointed out to be not allowed.

Waveform · Post by **Waveform** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:13 am

Well, I'd like to thank Dmitry for the work he put into editing and formatting the samples and for freely sharing them with us all, which is, I believe, in the spirit of the Forum.

Once Dmitry was made aware of the problem, he deleted the samples and has apologised to everyone. I agree with him - I don't see what else he can do.

Sharp has made it clear that new guidelines will be made available for future uploads, and that can only be good news.

This is a very murky and unclear area of the law (which varies from country to country). How many of the Soundfonts that are freely available contain at least some copyright material? - A very large percentage I would have thought.

Dmitry has apologised, Sharp has acted swiftly, new guidelines will be made available..... Let's all move on....

Ermak · Post by **Ermak** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:26 am

.Jens wrote:No. You can't assume one thing to be legal only if a similar thing is also legal. Usage of copyrighted material is not allowed, unless otherwise stated. If the permission given by the license agreement includes only the use of the samples as "instrument" in a song recording, that does not necessarily cover the distribution of the single samples in form of a sample pack. In most cases, this is even clearly pointed out to be not allowed.

This doesn't sound very consistent to me.

If I use a real piano, press some keys and record the sound, I'm allowed to create a sample library from this.

If I use the Kronos SGX-1, press some keys and record the sound, I'm not allowed to create a sample library.

This is kind of inconsistent because both are instruments. Or has a piano-maker rights reserved on the sound that a real piano produces ?

MRedZac · Post by **MRedZac** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:19 am

SynthKeyWizard wrote:
MRedZac wrote:
Sharp wrote:Hi Blink.
I'm not sure anyone can really answer you other than to say that technically you should delete the files.

The original product is called Symphony of Voices.
http://www.spectrasonics.net/products/l ... voices.php

I purchased this library myself many years ago and I've highly recommended it many times over the years here on KORG Forums. In fact I only last mentioned it a few weeks ago.
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=74143

For what it's worth.... It's timeless, and it's the best 500 bucks I ever spent on sounds. I'm not sure why the official website says it's 4 disks though when my copy came with 5. The 5th disk is called Additional Voices.

Regards
Sharp.
It should be considered, that Dimitry lives in and shares from Ukraine - a country in which copyrights are worth as much as a fart...
This is very disappointing. For a good thing that I wanted to do and that was a mistake, you punish me with such accusations.

I wrote that I deleted all samples which can violate copyrights. What else should I do?

I apologize to everyone for my mistake.

I am a manager of KORG Ukraine Group. And for me to do bad things consciously - is forbidden. You must understand this.

Dimitry, I´m sorry, but obviously, you understood my sentence wrong.
This was NOT against you, but just a remark, that in Ukraine the law and more than this, the follow up and treatment of it is different from what we have in the US or Germany and I wanted to make clear to everyone, that copyright laws are different from country to country. What is illegal in one country might be legal in another...
So if you want to share your user banks from Ukraine, i don´t see anything somebody i.e. in US can do about it and if I would live in your place there, I would give a damn s**t on copyrights, like so many others do there as well... (And yes, I know what I´m talking about, since I´m married to a ukrainian...) But maybe, I would create a homepage for it, something like www.kronosuserbanks.ua and not share the libaries here directly in the "halfofficial"-KF...

MRedZac · Post by **MRedZac** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:34 am

Biovac wrote:
MRedZac wrote:
It should be considered, that Dimitry lives in and shares from Ukraine - a country in which copyrights are worth as much as a fart...
I think this comment could be considered offensive.
If you want, we can talk about what Germany is doing wrong.

Germany is doing everything wrong. The copyright laws here are the worst ever seen from a little mans perspective... Downloading a movie from internet can bring you to prison for up to five years, but raping a child up to 3 years only... so there must be something wrong here in germany with copyright law definitely and I´m against it from the bottom of my heart in total. Starting from institutions like GEMA up to the protection of each and everything in general...

.Jens · Post by **.Jens** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:00 pm

Ermak wrote: This doesn't sound very consistent to me.
It is, once you see the difference between a recorded sample and a sound produced "live".

If I use a real piano, press some keys and record the sound, I'm allowed to create a sample library from this.
That's correct. Because actually each strike of the key will sound different, even more depending on the tuning, the room it is in, the recording setup - all these influences make "your" sound unique. It's yours.

If I use the Kronos SGX-1, press some keys and record the sound, I'm not allowed to create a sample library.
Exactly. That is because SGX is a sample-based engine and the samples are copyright protected. The situation is different if we talk e.g. about a real moog (it's like the piano above), or - staying with the kronos - about sounds you created using the MS20-EX/AL-1 and so on...

There again, we enter the gray zone, if we are talking about factory presets or those involving copyrighted material...

This is kind of inconsistent because both are instruments.
From a musicians point of view, I agree. In technical terms, a sample-based synthesizer is different: It's more or less a "tape machine" rather than an instrument. And exactly that's what makes the difference.

For vintage instruments, it becomes clearer: You can sample a Moog, but not a Mellotron. At least not "note by note", because that is technically identical to copying the tapes inside the mellotron.

Or has a piano-maker rights reserved on the sound that a real piano produces ?
No - not regarding sampling. Maybe he holds a patent on how to build a certain part - but that would only apply to rebuilds of the piano.

It is all about the word "recording"...

jerrythek · Post by **jerrythek** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:13 pm

I don't think Dimitry did anything consciously wrong, and I admire his dedication to being part of this great community. He reacted honorably and should still be applauded for working so hard to help everyone (for no personal gain). Lesson learned/move on.

Jerry

Sparker · Post by **Sparker** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:43 pm

Having spent last night surfing the web and reading up on copyright it just seems like a lawyers' paradise, nevermind the philosophical issues regarding the benefits and disadvantages of the whole copyright concept.

I hadn't heard of the 'sound recording copyright' or the sound recording copyright symbol (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_reco ... ght_symbol )
- which seems to apply to the method of storage of sounds and not the sound itself.
I've not seen this symbol on any of my equipment, though to be honest I've not been looking for something I didn't know existed.

To make matters more confusing there are the Creative Commons license extensions ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons_licenses ) which allows for sharing or other specifically defined exemptions.

My conclusion was pretty much the same as Qui's; i.e. that in order to share samples you need to have recorded the sample yourself - although there appears to be grey area around pre-recorded samples that you have modified (re-sampled) yourself.

I look forward to clarification by Sharp of KF's position on sample copyright.

For instance, what is the situation where a product (say a CD of sample files) is no longer commercially available? Can that now be made available to share on-line or are these sounds lost to the world for the next 70-100 odd years?

Personally I blame 'The Mouse'