Corporate level: invest more in Kronos or just the minimum?

Randelph · Post by **Randelph** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:34 am

At a corporate level, I wonder how money is allocated. I was reading the threads on the Editor, and of course have seen the many threads on OS upgrades requested.

Seems to me most money is spent on initial product development, and then to get upgrades, or even fulfillment of the initial specs, takes alot of time, I'm guessing 'cause there's less money and fewer engineers dedicated to the project at that point. It might be a case of seeing so much money fly out the door for its development, with cost overruns, that corporate wants to see some return before investing more money in a given project.

The M3 was released before it was really ready (Kurzweil PC3 anyone?), and how long did it take before they gave the users a more worthwhile set of samples and OS upgrades that I believe was intended all the time (IIRC it was over a year to get OS 2.0.)

These are all business decisions. What i don't get is why Korg would decide to put the Kronos on the back burner. It's their flagship board that blows away the competition, and has given them a chance to be the top dog. At least to my un-informed view, they're making poor decisions- investing more in the Kronos platform in a timely manner seems like a no-brainer. Why take a beating, like Roland did with the Fantom G, when most of these issues will be taken care of eventually? It just breeds ill-will with the end users, and exhibits a lack of faith in the success of their product.

I know Dan is totally committed to the Oasys/Kronos concept, but it's probably not his decision. Korg seems to be going more of a Casio route, investing primarily in the lower cost end of the market. Which is why their reluctance to spend more money on the Kronos and get basics like the M3 sequencer features, an excellent Editor/Sample manager, etc., is puzzling. With a flagship like the Kronos, that's priceless advertising for all their low cost products. And having an outstanding integration with DAWs would give a lot of software based folks a reason to invest in hardware.

And we all know the power of forums like this to help people make buying decisions: get something like the XF that's cheaper, has excellent corporate support, a decent well-rounded sample set, excellent editors & sample managers (both from Yamaha and 3d party), and a reputation for quality hardware and good DAW integration; or take a gamble that the Kronos, which is a superior sound generator in most cases, will deliver on Editor and DAW integration, the OS continuing to be upgraded to its implied promise (M3 sequencer, larger fonts within some screens, etc.) and that the quality of the board itself is on a par with the XF.

I think Korg made an awesome decision in giving users the ability to stream samples. Incredible possibilities just from that. And to do that, they had to let go of their proprietary hold on streaming samples, and as a result, see fewer sales for their own for-sale sample libraries.

In the same way, I think that as manufacturers see the writing on the wall, they'll see it to their advantage, and that they really don't have much choice if they want to have good sales, to GIVE AWAY capabilities like that that plays well with others (Apple seems to be the exception, everything is proprietary with them, but they're an industry leader and get to set the rules for the market).

What I'd like to know, is how profitable the Kronos has been, and is projected to be over its product life. Can they invest another $500,000-$1,000,000 (just guessing here) in the Kronos platform and still see a decent return on investment? What are the kinds of sales numbers that would justify to corporate that kind of investment? What kind of collateral benefit from being the top workstation, hence lots of "free advertising", comes from having a well-developed Kronos?

I imagine if I was a company like Yamaha/Roland/Kurz/Korg, I'd be wondering about the future of workstations!!!

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:47 am

Randelph wrote: I think Korg made an awesome decision in giving users the ability to stream samples. Incredible possibilities just from that. And to do that, they had to let go of their proprietary hold on streaming samples, and as a result, see fewer sales for their own for-sale sample libraries.

VMT for user samples was always part of the plan. This was not a shift in strategy.

neomad · Post by **neomad** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:33 am

VMT for user samples was always part of the plan. This was not a shift in strategy.

Hi Dan, thanks to be there. It's our hope you have reserved yet more 'surprises' for upcoming months / years.

Kronos is a fantastic machine already, but a few add ons or/and updates will pump sales volume & satisfy most exigent customers.

Regards

neomad · Post by **neomad** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:50 am

Randelph wrote:Which is why their reluctance to spend more money on the Kronos and get basics like the M3 sequencer features, an excellent Editor/Sample manager, etc

That will be enough to beat all competitors: dream synth with 9 engines + best hard sequencer + seamless DAW integration.

1jordyzzz · Post by **1jordyzzz** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:25 am

i think korg do should invest more... korg kronos userbase are growing, and we can even see that the kronos forum activity is greater than any other forum.. plus, more and more artist upgrade or switch their primary board to kronos.. more artist means more publication and testimonials about kronos and will attract more people to buy it.

shame that korg didn't always listen to it's users, at least to inputs like:
1. better editor like those on SV1 and krome
2. m3/krome sequencer

Ojustaboo · Post by **Ojustaboo** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:55 am

The danger with any company is that those at the top could easily look at the amount of sales, come to the conclusion that while its still selling really well, the vast majority of must have owners have already made their purchases and the majority of those that held off for a while are likely to do so in the next 6 months or so.

So from their point of view, investing more money in a keyboard when they wont see any instant return on that investment is a big no.

The above is not aimed at Korg in any way, just an observation on the short sighted way many people in charge of the funds at various companies seem to think

However, what those at the top fail to realise is that if they did invest more money in it, the customer is going to be singing their praises from the rooftops, giving them no end of advertising etc and when their next flagship product is released, the customer wont have any hesitation purchasing it, even if it has software issues than need work on, sure in the knowledge the company supports and wants to keep its current customer base happy.

Matthomas · Post by **Matthomas** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:34 pm

1jordyzzz wrote:i think korg do should invest more... korg kronos userbase are growing, and we can even see that the kronos forum activity is greater than any other forum.. plus, more and more artist upgrade or switch their primary board to kronos.. more artist means more publication and testimonials about kronos and will attract more people to buy it.

shame that korg didn't always listen to it's users, at least to inputs like:
1. better editor like those on SV1 and krome
2. m3/krome sequencer

I bought the Kronos instead of Roland J-80 because its a workstation!
The thing that makes these two different is that Kronos has Sequencer.

BUT, if I had known the sequencer has so little features,
- Missing having volumes in Sequencer visible as LED Ramps, or
- ability to have Piano roll for easy Edits

These two Sequencer features make the Kronos useful as workstation.

I'm hoping Korg will update the Sequencer for Showing Volumes of each track and Piano roll Editing.

Otherwise - Korg will have many of use selling our "almost finished" Kronos keyboards for the competition, because the sounds are the not feature!

Sample libraries do not guarantee sales alone for a workstation, it must have mature workstation Features like Krome has......

If I must go back to using a PC to sequence, than it has less important over what keyboard to use, or whether its workstation or keyboard.

Korg could lose many loyal customers to the competition if they drop the Ball. I paid a small fortune for the chance to own a incomplete Sequencer based workstation....

ScoobyDoo555 · Post by **ScoobyDoo555** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:10 pm

With all due respect Mattthomas, whilst your disappointments about Kronos are evident, surely if you'd really played with Kronos in a local shop, you would have seen these perceivable failings, and ultimately gone with the JP80.....

Not having a go, but it is a lot of money to spend without suitable homework for what you specifically want the machine for.

I hope that Korg do develop the OS to cater for most of your needs though - we're all pretty much in the same boat!

JPWC · Post by **JPWC** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:52 pm

Hey Matthomas, just so you know the sequencer on the JP-80 does not work well.

(it aint got no velocity meters or piano scroll, no event edit, nothing, heck it does even record events, let alone let you edit them)

(sorry dude, just being stupid)

Workstations, keyboard are just like people, no matter how stronger they are in one area or feature, you'll find them lacking in some other. Welcome to the real world.

The Kronos is a great sounding keyboard and has a strong set of features just like the Motif and Fantom or even the PC3.

And like all corporations these days, they don't care so much about you selling their product, because you've already paid for it.

Customer loyalty is only as long as the warranty.

I think Korg does a pretty good job and makes some excellent products, at least products I want to purchase. I also find that Korg tends to update or develop a product a little longer than Roland or Yamaha.

It is a little funny that the features people are missing on the Kronos, were on their last workstation. And I do hope they have an upgrade plan to give them to us, but if they do they'll never get my money for the Krome.

I think many of you have the wrong goal in mind, I don't want one perfect all features included workstation. I want as many workstations I can fit into my little project studio. Who cares if one of them is missing some feature, having multiple options that I can't remember how to access is much more fun. (Spend a couple weeks playing the Kronos, then try and record something on the Motif, you forget so much, it's like the Motif is a new workstation you just bought).

forget it. I going outside to the studio now to play my keyboards.

JPWC · Post by **JPWC** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:54 pm

opps double post, :3dthumbs:

burningbusch · Post by **burningbusch** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:17 pm

I'm not really following a lot of what the OP is getting at as I don't understand business in the same way he does evidently.

I don't know the inner workings of Korg but my guess is product development MIGHT look something like this:

- Small group specs the product.
- Team is assembled to begin development of prototype (basic OS. basic hardware)
- Prototypes sent to sound developers.
- Product is finalized (OS is locked down as well as core sounds)
- Hand built models are assembled and fully tested.
- Production begins.
- Product ships.
- Features (OS, sounds, etc.) that weren't ready at the time the product shipped but were in the original specs are added over time + bugfixes found by the user community + user requested features not in the specs if possible.

After a certain point the people working on the product begin working on something new. After a certain point the product isn't going to be enhanced. I'm guessing as well that the cycle I outlined above has probably started for a second generation of the Kronos. This does not mean the Kronos won't continue to be enhanced (I have no idea personally), just that some people involved in the development are likely moving on.

So I don't get your basic premise about spending new money and "investing." I don't accept by any stretch that Korg left its users out to dry. Korg has provided the following enhancements via OS updates. Only the Editor was promised, the others were unexpected "gifts."

- Seven additional user program banks
- Ability to add additional 1GB RAM
- Support for connecting USB MIDI class‐compliant controllers directly to the Kronos.
- RAM Multisamples has been increased from 1,000 to 4,000, and the maximum numbers of RAM Samples and Multisample Indexes have each been increased from 4,000 to 16,000
- Software-based Editor
- Ability to add second SSD
- User Sample Banks
- USB Ethernet Support
- Ability to stream user sample libraries from SSD.

The Motif XF has been out longer than the Kronos. Please list the OS updates and enhancements provided by Yamaha.

As far as the future of the workstation is concerned, for me it's how you define workstation. If you mean as Korg has defined it with the Kronos: user streaming samples, multiple SSDs, multiple VAs, numerous physical modeling engines, SST, Set List Mode, KARMA, then yes to me I think workstations definitely have a future.

Busch.

1jordyzzz · Post by **1jordyzzz** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:23 pm

burningbusch wrote: The Motif XF has been out longer than the Kronos. Please list the OS updates and enhancements provided by Yamaha.

i agree with you... yamaha is much more money oriented.. korg is not really.. that's why i think korg has more loyal user base..

burningbusch wrote: As far as the future of the workstation is concerned, for me it's how you define workstation. If you mean as Korg has defined it with the Kronos: user streaming samples, multiple SSDs, multiple VAs, numerous physical modeling engines, SST, Set List Mode, KARMA, then yes to me I think workstations definitely have a future.

Busch.

SST, user streaming samples, multilpe VA, numerous physical modeling.... what's a criteria for that?? its a synthesizer... not a workstation.. a workstation is all that + sequencer and mastering tools (which kronos has).. but this point, the sequencer that korg has offered in kronos is not good enough compared to modern DAW (hell, it's a game changing workstation)..

Purusha · Post by **Purusha** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:36 pm

Surely the simple answer is: paid software updates for new features!?

neomad · Post by **neomad** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:46 pm

Purusha wrote:Surely the simple answer is: paid software updates for new features!?

I agree to pay an advanced 64 bits software editor (attention busch, was not a gift but something promoted since the begining).

I do not agree to pay for a full featured sequencer when Krome customers enjoy one having paid 1/3 of Kronos value !. I'm just requesting the same features, at least !

GregC · Post by **GregC** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:18 pm

Korg did the Oasys some years ago and we know how sales went.

The o/p should consider that

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Corporate level: invest more in Kronos or just the minimum?

Corporate level: invest more in Kronos or just the minimum?

Re: Corporate level: invest more in Kronos or just the minim

Re: Corporate level: invest more in Kronos or just the minim