Roland= no the rack is not dead! integra 7

[jimknopf]

kanout, you don't get my point.

It's fine that Roland exists.
It's fine when musicians have fun with Roland gear.

- What's definitely NOT fine is how the Clan forum works, and how a majority of the few users behave.
- What's NOT fine is how the Roland official in there has behaved and does behave.
- What's NOT fine is how Roland constantly(!), since years, puts absolutely silly, annoying, arbitrary limitations into their gear in a way which does not make sense at all to me, and forces many users to buy more gear to get their tasks done in a proper way. That's bad company behavior from my view.

When I meet bad behavior of a certain degree, I think it's a good habit to name it. Not more and not less. I don't care a bit if anyone likes that or not.

[KONNECTORAS]

I agree with your point of view, but I can say the same thing about KORG gear and how KORG puts silly limitations to its gear...

Everything is about bad marketing policies...

[jimknopf]

Frankly, in everday musicmaking with my Kronos, I don't face a fraction of the artificial limitations I constantly met while playing my Fantoms (which of course had some nice sides as well), or when I just look at the specs and user experience with newer Roland gear (Gaia, JP80/50, Integra7 etc.).
Same with this forum: I really enjoy it as rich resource with lots of helpful hints, discussing of upsides AND downsides of our gear (some Kronos problem zones even got stickies - such requests were always denied in the Clan forum, from my view just for the sake of company reputation), all without much stress.
Same with company presence in the forum: often present, helpful, and not too defensive or even aggressive towards critical feedback.

So, in everyday life, it does make quite a big, positive difference to me.

[burningbusch]

I think people are under the impression there is a VST Editor/Librarian for this product. I think they might be wrong. I've read through the literature and can find no reference to an editor/librarian, only the iPad app and a VST Motion Surround Editor.

Read through the info in the guidebook

http://cms.rolandus.com/assets/media/pd ... debook.pdf

After playing with the iPad app in demo mode and reading through the manual for it, it appears to be VERY basic. It allows you to create/edit Studio Sets at a very rudimentary level. You can pull up sounds, load SRX and SN sounds into the virtual slots, play with the Motion Surround and edit SN synth sounds. You cannot set up sophisticated Studio Sets, edit SN acoustic/SN drum/PCM sounds. You cannot change global parameters nor edit EQ. You cannot change FXs or edit FX parameters. And probably a whole lot more. Some things you can do with an iPad but a lot of the time you're going to be reaching for the unit and going through menus. So you can edit the SN Synth from the iPad but if you want to change/edit the FX for that patch you'll have to do that on the Integra, at least from what I'm understanding.

There's the additional issue of workflow (one main reason I don't like iPad apps to begin with). So you have a song that incorporates the Integra. Is the parameter data stored on the iPad, the Integra, the DAW? I don't know. You probably will need to store your song data as it relates to recalling the Integra in all three. Your safest bet is to record the Integra to audio ASAP to lock it down. I don't know the odds of coming back two weeks later and having accurate recall of everything.

All this is hard to believe but I think it's true. Get used to working on that 256 x 80 LCD. Not good news for Mac or Windows users. They might release an actual editor/librarian at some point if there's enough bitching.

Busch.

[Jan1]

That's disappointing.

Initially Dan from Roland wrote that it was possible to drive the module with the App, but when I asked him if it was possible to do everything with the editor I got no reply.
Later I found out that for FX editing you have to interact with the module, and now it looks like a lot of other operations can be done only directly from the module.

I really like what the Integra has to offer in terms of sounds, but it's a shame there are a couple of downsides to this module: no proper VST editor for Windows and the available editor for iPad is (too) limited in its functionality, the way the expansion sounds are organized in a rigid card based concept instead of a database concept where you simply choose a sound and load it into RAM, the rigid FX structure.

[SanderXpander]

Good catch, Busch. It's these kinds of things that get people so frustrated with equipment. Something is hinted at, and you start assuming.
Like with expecting full VST integration of the Kronos. No company likes to put down what you CAN'T do with their machine.

[sani]

But what's absolutly funny,is the fact 3 or 4 korg forum users like you(always the same)are always taking the occasion to troll about roland and roland clan,with an ironic ,and a kind of innocent posture.

Please, go there to RolandClan and read just the posts from RayS. Then come back and let's talk again about trolling.

[burningbusch]

To further clarify, only sections in bold are available for editing with the iPad app (as I understand it). The VST Motion Surround Editor appears to only control those parameters in the MOTIONAL SURROND section. Everything else needs to be done from the Integra.

Studio Set
STUDIO SET COMMON
-GENERAL
-CONTROL
-PHASE LOCK
PART VIEW
-TONE
-LEVEL/CH (partial)
-EQ
-KBD
-PITCH
-OFFSET
-MIDI
MOTIONAL SURROUND
-COMMON
-PART
-CONTROL
EFFECTS ROUTING
-STUDIO SET EFFECTS
-COMP+EQ OUTPUT
-CHORUS
-REVERB
-MASTER EQ

SuperNATURAL Acoustic Tone (SN-A)
TONE EDIT (SN-A)
-COMMON
- INST
-SuperNATURAL INST Parameters
-Performance Variation Sounds
-MFX
-MFX CTRL

SuperNATURAL Synth Tone (SN-S)
TONE EDIT (SN-S)
-COMMON
-OSC
-PITCH
-FILTER
-AMP
-LFO
-MOD LFO
-AFTERTOUCH
-MISC
-MFX
-MFX CTRL

SuperNATURAL Drum Kit (SN-D)
TONE EDIT (SN-D)
-DRUM INST
-COMP
-EQ
-MFX
-MFX CTRL

PCM Synth Tone (PCMS)
TONE EDIT (PCMS)
-COMMON
-WAVE
-PMT
-PITCH
-PITCH ENV
-TVF
-TVF ENV
-TVA
-TVA ENV
-OUTPUT
-LFO1/LFO2
-STEP LFO
-CTRL
-MTRX CTRL1–4
-MFX
-MFX CTRL

PCM Drum Kit (PCMD)
TONE EDIT (PCMD)
-WAVE
-WMT
-PITCH
-PITCH ENV
-TVF
-TVF ENV
-TVA
-TVA ENV
-OUTPUT
-COMP
-EQ
-MFX
-MFX CTRL

MFX Parameters
-Equalizer
-Spectrum
-Low Boost
-Step Filter
-Enhancer
-Auto Wah
-Humanizer
-Speaker Simulator
-Phaser 1
-Phaser 2
-Phaser 3
-Step Phaser
-Multi Stage Phaser
-Infinite Phaser
-Ring Modulator
-Tremolo
-Slicer
-Rotary 1
-Rotary 2
-Rotary 3
-Chorus
-Flanger
-Step Flanger
-Hexa-Chorus
-Tremolo Chorus
-Space-D
-Overdrive
-Distortion
-Guitar Amp Simulator
-Compressor
-Limiter
-Gate
-Delay
-Modulation Delay
-3Tap Pan Delay
-4Tap Pan Delay
-Multi Tap Delay
-Reverse Delay
-Time Ctrl Delay
-LOFI Compress
-Bit Crasher
-Pitch Shifter
-2Voice Pitch Shifter
-Overdrive -> Chorus
-Overdrive -> Flanger
-Overdrive -> Delay
-Distortion -> Chorus
-Distortion -> Flanger
-Distortion -> Delay
-OD/DS -> TouchWah
-GuitarAmpSim -> Chorus
-GuitarAmpSim -> Flanger
-GuitarAmpSim -> Phaser
-GuitarAmpSim -> Delay
-EP AmpSim -> Tremolo
-EP AmpSim -> Chorus
-EP AmpSim -> Flanger
-EP AmpSim -> Phaser
-EP AmpSim -> Delay
-Enhancer -> Chorus
-Enhancer -> Flange
-Enhancer -> Delay
-Chorus -> Delay
-Flanger -> Delay
-Chorus -> Flanger

Chorus, Reverb
-Chorus Parameters
-Reverb Parameters

SuperNATURAL Tone CC Assign

Busch.

[jimknopf]

Add the fact that you only have 64 studio set list slots available at a time, compared to thousands of program and combination slots on a Kronos. And as far as I understood, there are no user program slots available, just these studio sets (like Kronos combis).

No easy task for the development team, to make kind of crippleware of a great basic idea (best of Roland sounds in one rack):

- make only a fraction of the sounds on board directly available by limiting the availability of many sounds: 12 SRX banks plus lots of others limited to 4 slots, only available for whole banks
- deliver an ipad "editor" which only edits a small fraction of the available parameters, forcing the user to get most of the available editing done on a tiny front display
- limit the user sound slots to 64 at a time

How is that supposed to make sense to users?

[EXer]

Besides the 4 virtual slots and the 128 voices polyphony limitations, what I find very disappointing about the Integra is that Roland took the old expansion boards sound set 'as is' without improving them.

Some SRX waveforms came from older SR-JV80 sound sets which where made from older Roland sample CDs or from older SO-PCM boards, and compromises had to be made, unfortunately.

Examples:
• the powerful low C of the basses from the Roland orchestral sample CD-ROMs had been left out of the SR-JV80-02 'Orchestral' expansion board
• while the SR-JV80-07 'Super Sound Set' board included the 'Flute' stop (register) of the church organ from the older SO-PCM1-06 'Baroque' board for the JD-800, the 'Principal' stop of the church organ had been left out
• some valuable orchestral wind instruments from the sample CDs have been left out of the SR-JV80-16 'Orchestral II' board to leave enough room for Celtic instruments just because the board came out after the 'Titanic' movie (bad marketing choice)

Imo Roland should have catched the opportunity to correct the compromises they had to make or they chose to make in the 80's while still retaining the spirit of those sound sets.

Typical Roland taste of not-completely-baked!

P.S. if I remember correctly Roland had rewritten some presets of the JV-2080 for the XP-30: where those original JV-2080 patches used standard ROM waveforms only they have been improved on the XP-30 by taking advantage of the better pianos and strings waveforms of the built-in 'Session' and 'Orchestral' expansion boards (yes, I'm talking of 'standard' presets that had been modified, I'm not talking about the additional presets of the expansion boards!)

[DH56]

The Integra-7 is of course not perfect, but what in this world is? For those who attempted to tear it down before even hearing it and knowing the structure…get a clue BEFORE posting! For those who have the need to accuse Roland engineers as being “brain dead”, we eagerly await YOUR grandiose product that you have designed, engineered, built and marketed for the masses. For those who have a problem with Roland Clan…can’t we ALL just get along?! For those who have a problem with the price I will try to put things in some type of perspective:

When the XV-5080 came out in 2000, it was if I remember correctly about $2000 or so street ($2495 list). SR-JV expansion boards were around $200-250 each and the SRX boards were on the order of $250-300 each. For the sake of argument, let’s just say that they were $200 each. So all 12 SRX’s would have been $2400 and that would bring the grand total there to ~$4400, and we are talking about year 2000 dollars here that were worth more before the pernicious effects of inflation had robbed them of even more of their purchasing power.

On the I-7, add in the latest SN technology with dedicated MFX for all 16 parts and throw in the Motional Surround and the $2000 USD price tag is a problem? I fully realize its shortcomings such as only 128 voice polyphony and lack of some desired VSTi and DAW functions, but gads lads!

This thing packs quite a punch for the price for us who have been at this for a while. And at the end of the bleedin’ day, it is after all about the SOUNDS. I care not that the samples on the expansion boards are 10, 15 or even 50 years old! They STILL sound quite good and the XV-5080 patches never went out of style as far as I’m concerned. Nor do I have time to sit around finding every little shortcoming and whining about its limitations. I am about the business of having fun making music and this thing is quite capable of helping me and others do just that, warts and all!

Let’s make music…all the rest is just “woulda-shoulda-coulda” hyperbole!

[davids]

I ordered one this morning. Hope to get it by Friday.

BTW, the SRX boards still have some very good acoustic sounds by modern standards. The drum (SRX-01 & 03), string (SRX-04 & 06), guitar (SRX-03), and brass (SRX-11) sounds are all significantly more realistic and playable than the Kronos.

And that's before you even get to the SuperNatural sounds, a lot of which sound like they were taken more directly from the original master recordings used to create the 1993-1994 CD-ROM libraries.

However, the Kronos has a much different, very hifi character that IMO is just as valuable.

I think these instruments will complement each other very nicely, especially when the Integra runs out of polyphony.

[davids]

Well, I got it. A few initial comments below.

It does depart a bit from the usual ROMpler , as it does not have a patch/program mode at all, just a multi/combi mode.

The sounds are very, very good for the most part, and are very usable - they play very well and I can already tell that they fit extremely well into a mix. The Integra's brass, drums, acoustic guitar, analog synth emulations, and D-50 and JD-990 digital synth presets are the stand-outs thus far, though I admit I've got a long way to go still.

Polyphony can be a problem with the acoustic sounds, some of which use 6-8 voices per note. With 4 or 5 parts going and some sustained chords, the dropouts can be pretty obvious. I don't know how many notes the SuperNatural synth sounds typically use.

Effects, esp. reverb are excellent, but the effects structure takes some getting used to, since you can only have 1 insert effect per MIDI channel. Also, there is no global mastering or compression effect like there is on the Fantom series, though there a special compressor and EQ for drum parts, but I haven't tried it yet.

I haven't really dug into the SuperNatural synth sounds in detail yet, but I was disappointed to hear some JP-8000-like stepping in the filter, though it can sound extremely good nevertheless. Not sure how the software developers responsible for $50 synth plugins can figure out how to interpolate between 128 discrete MIDI CC values and Roland can't.

There don't seem to be a lot of newly programmed PCM sounds on offer. I find it a bit odd that, aside from the SuperNatural category presets, the first 1,000 or so PCM presets are all lifted directly from the 12-year old XV-5080.

Parts of the interface are very similar to the S-770 sampler, and other parts are closer to the XV-5080. Overall it's pretty logical, but there are some minor confusing aspects, at least for me.

The big negatives are this point for me are the 128 polyphony, effects structure and (idiotic) Roland decision to limit the USB connection to 2 channels, instead of all 8. It's a great way to ensure that you have a 1990s era spaghetti of cables behind the rack aside from the other obvious disadvantages related to DAW integration.

Have not tried the Motion Surround RSS effect yet, nor the iPad editor, so I can't comment on those yet.

Unfortunately, I can already conclude that Roland's "everything-in-one-box "marketing claims are far-fetched, but the quality, playability, and quantity of the sounds is probably going to make up for it.

You guys were right to predict that this is a strangely compromised (some might say handicapped) machine. Still not sure if I am going to keep it, but am leaning toward it.

More to come. Stay tuned.

[videorov]

Lots of sounds at your finger tips that you don't have to create but
you can teak if you like lots of them.
Nice for the Jupiter 80 folks.

[blytzz]

this threads getting a little crazy but let me share a scenario with everyone, Ive been waiting to buy a nice workstation for a while, I've got about 4k to spend and its just waiting, I bought the Kronos then cancelled the order, the os is still the same mess as my old triton, rppr is a pain to work with. And the acoustic sounds are horrid on it. After hearing a jp80 I knew I wanted something that sounded as full and good as that. But I need an 88 weighted key action. So anyways, both companies have half-baked products, just korg at the moment gives you more with karma and key options, but the synths and acoustics arent even close to what Roland creates.
The Integra 7 has pretty much everything Im looking for except poly, a good live editor, and weighted keys. Its a pretty dumb product imo due to the fact that 90% of the functions have to be accessed using the buttons on the rack, so this means massive menu diving on a tiny little screen using up down keys...soooo dumb. They have an ipad app but it hardly controls anything for live use other than selecting stuff. If Roland put this into a 256 poly Keyboard with Roland action and added a Kronos/Fantom type interface that 4k I've been holding onto would be gone.
So ultimately I have to agree with Roland stuff being half-baked...it is. But so is korg stuff. Hopefully thats about to change.