Using one sustain pedal with 2 keyboards

amosdef · Post by **amosdef** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:24 pm

I'm still having an issue getting this to work and was hoping that I'm overlooking something. I have an external keyboard connected to the midi in on the Kronos. The Kronos is on midi channel 1 and the external keyboard is midi channel 2. I would like to connect a sustain pedal to the Kronos and have it affect sounds on both midi channels.

I can get this to work using Karma to route midi from channel 1 to channel 2, using the Track Thru option, but this also sends midi notes to channel 2 when playing channel 1 sounds. If there was a way to filter that from happening, I would be all set. I really don't like having two pedals and I'm reluctant to just rewire my sustain pedal for two outputs on the odd chance it would short something out and damage the keyboards.

Ideally, the sustain pedal data would just be transmitted on all channels and you could just filter it out on the channels you didn't want it to affect.

.Jens · Post by **.Jens** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:43 pm

At least for Combis (should work similar for SEQ) I worked out a solution some time ago:
http://korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/view ... hp?t=73152

You are halfway through it, using KARMA. There are a few more "hacks" to do to prevent the note messages being sent also...

amosdef · Post by **amosdef** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:47 pm

I just figured it out. Here's how I got it to work, in case anyone else is interested.

In the Karma tab on the Combi, set the input channel of B to channel 2 (external midi controller) and the output of B to channel 1 (Kronos) On A, enable Thru In Z. Make sure Run is disabled on A and that the Karma Button is on. The sustain pedal should be plugged into the external midi controller and you should be able to sustain notes on either keyboard with one pedal. In the midi filter tab, you can then disable the sustain (damper) pedal for individual parts as needed.

amosdef · Post by **amosdef** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:48 pm

.Jens wrote:At least for Combis (should work similar for SEQ) I worked out a solution some time ago:
http://korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/view ... hp?t=73152

You are halfway through it, using KARMA. There are a few more "hacks" to do to prevent the note messages being sent also...

Thanks! Managed to figure it out. Should have done another search first.

Bakerman · Post by **Bakerman** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:02 pm

In case you didn't see the other thread linked there, this can also work with the pedal connected to the Kronos if you prefer.

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... 910#481910

.Jens, I think the solution you arrived at w/ thru settings was probably needed due to a module's in & out both being set to a single channel, which will mute that timbre's channels. An easy way to avoid that is changing the in and/or out channels. So the settings would be:

Module A: In ch = 1, Out ch = 2
Modules B, C, D: Set in or out or both to some unused channel.

Make sure every checkbox at the GE Setup/Key Zones page is unticked, and everything should be working.

laandodeman · Post by **laandodeman** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:43 pm

Y-cable one female to two male jacks? Something like this?
http://www.thomann.de/nl/pro_snake_tpy_ ... 63f0e2dd7d

.Jens · Post by **.Jens** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:29 am

This kind of thing does not necessarily work. It depends too much on the circuits within the synths you try to trigger with the same pedal via this adapter.

Today, when most of the machines have some kind of polarity detection built in, or at least the possibility to switch between polarities in the UI, it requires detailed knowledge of the pedal sensing circuits to make such an adapter work. And just trying might work one time, and not another. It is highly possible that strange side-effects occur if you connect the pedal inputs of two different synths, and in rare cases you might even damage them.

The better solution, if you really want to use a hardware solution rather than a MIDI "hack", would be to exchange the switch in the pedal with a two-layer switch providing two mechanically coupled, but electrically isolated switches in a single package.

laandodeman · Post by **laandodeman** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:34 pm

.Jens wrote:This kind of thing does not necessarily work. It depends too much on the circuits within the synths you try to trigger with the same pedal via this adapter.
.

For me it works. Most synths give the opportunity to switch polarity.

ronnfigg · Post by **ronnfigg** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:44 pm

There has been an ad in keyboard in the past for a company that makes a pedal with a "y'd" cable that can connect to two different synths at the same time. Simple hardware fix- no programming required.

.Jens · Post by **.Jens** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:54 pm

laandodeman wrote:
.Jens wrote:This kind of thing does not necessarily work. It depends too much on the circuits within the synths you try to trigger with the same pedal via this adapter.
.
For me it works. Most synths give the opportunity to switch polarity.

I know - but if it works for you, it's either synths from the same manufacturer or pure luck. It's definitely no solution one would generally suggest - especially as there is a high chance of malfunction or even damage.

The thing is: what is usually labeled with "polarity" in the context of pedals, is in fact not really a polarity but the selection between "normally open" and "normally closed".

Think of synth A which has sleeve connected to ground, and the tip of the pedal jack is on "high" level (usually +5V or 3.3V) via a pullup resistor.
If synth B has it the other way round, a single switch would work exactly the same - but connecting both synths would cause both to "see" a closed contact, no matter if the actual pedal is pressed or not.

There are many ways to design a circuitry to detect if a pedal or switch is depressed - and I've seen a lot of those in different gear over the years. Many, if not most, of them are not mutually compatible if directly connected with an y-cable.

My statement is still:
It may work - it may not work - it might (even if not very probable) fry the pedal input.

As long as the chance to damage anything is not zero, I wouldn't recommend to try it... At least not with a 3000$+ workstation.

mm-pro · Post by **mm-pro** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:41 am

I have been Y connecting sustain pedals for years between various makes of synths with no ill affect. Kurz, Yamaha, Korg, & Nord. The pedals are simple switches. If you are really concerned about it, put a double throw switch in a pedal...but, seriously I have done this for twenty years without an issue, and have been using my Kronos & Vl1 sharing a pedal for many gigs.

.Jens · Post by **.Jens** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:01 am

mm-pro wrote:I have been Y connecting sustain pedals for years between various makes of synths with no ill affect. Kurz, Yamaha, Korg, & Nord.

Well, then maybe they are the using all more or less the same logic nowadays. Nice to know. I remember having different switching logic schemes on several synths in the past. But if there is some kind of de facto standard at least for the voltages now, this is fine.

Anyway, I don't like the idea of connecting two "active" jacks of different gear and unknown circuitry (if you consider an input as "passive", and an output as "active", pedal jacks are to be considered "active" on the electrical level, even if it's an input from the user interface point of view).

The pedals are simple switches.

This exactly why I am concerned. This means that there has to be a voltage applied to one or both of the pins to detect if the circuit is open or closed. And, as I said, there are many ways to do this in detail. If it works, fine.
But as long as the vendors of the synths do not speficy the kind of circuit used, or provide schematics of these sections, I'd recommend to stay conservative.

Even with phantom power (more or less the same issue) you can have funny side effects if you do an y-split to two different mixing desks. And the phantom power circuits are quite well documented and "standard" compared to the different sustain schemes.