A korg Kronos & a Roland integra-7

RonF · Post by **RonF** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:16 am

I sold my Fantom G after a few years. No regrets. I waited long enough for Roland to upgrade it or improve its "integral" flaws. Instead they came out with the Integra...which has flaws of its own. I own a Jupiter 80, which is a great keyboard, but again, has its critical flaws.

I mostly agree with you, Roland has some wonderful stuff which is just almost on the edge of greatness....IF ONLY they would smooth out the fatal flaws....which they never do....and which almost seem to be introduced into the design structure *intentionally*. The Fantom G could have been (should have been) groundbreaking! But, alas, Roland's design strategy crippled it...and then they left it as is, leaving wanting consumers to dream for/hope for the next generation or variation on it. Guess what....the next generation or variation has its own fatal flaws....which once again leaves you wanting the next...and so on, and so on. This strategy can work for a while.....but after a while.....its just not working for me anymore.

CoreyMast · Post by **CoreyMast** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:54 am

I look at the Integra as good for a studio. You can record and layer as many of the sounds from the box as you want in your DAW. You have all the sounds in one box. From the advertisements it looks like the Integra would be good for studio application while the Jupiter is their live performance machine. I don't own either so I don't really know. I'd like to have an integra for the studio though just to have access to a lot of the Roland sounds. This appeals to me.

PauloF · Post by **PauloF** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:06 pm

CoreyMast wrote:I look at the Integra as good for a studio. You can record and layer as many of the sounds from the box as you want in your DAW. You have all the sounds in one box. From the advertisements it looks like the Integra would be good for studio application while the Jupiter is their live performance machine. I don't own either so I don't really know. I'd like to have an integra for the studio though just to have access to a lot of the Roland sounds. This appeals to me.

Good point CoreyMast !
That would be exactly the same use I would give it, if I had one myself
Even for stage...it would be a huge sound bank

DH56 · Post by **DH56** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:48 am

What was the topic of this thread again? Korg Kronos and Roland Integra-7. I see that with the exception of a few, it has sadly turned into another one of those "bash Roland and all they do" exercises.

While I don't own a Kronos, I am the proud owner of the old discontinued Korg workstation known as the OASYS and I can tell you from experience that the OASYS, Jupiter-80 and Integra-7 make for a mighty bunch of sound making machines that complement each other magnificently.

Jim seems to think that the ability to load only 4 expansion boards at a time is some serious detriment that makes the unit undesirable. How many times have I used more than two or three expansions at once from my fully loaded 1080, 2080,5080 and FantomXR? Bloody few and that's a fact.

But you are missing one big point here...sure it is sold as a "16-part" module, but at 128 voices, you will run out of 'em long before you are able to have more than a few expansions and SN "voices" hammering away anyway.

Is this a limitation? Sure, if you make it one. My job as a musician is to make music, and to find workarounds and solutions to the limitations that the synth companies have saddled me with. Not sit around whining and complaining with "woulda-shoulda-coulda" hyperbole.

The way I see it, Roland has provided me with 6000 very useable sounds in a compact form at a price point that wasn't that much more than I spent for my XV-5080 back in 2004 (and that in 2102 dollars which aren't worth that much anymore...no thanks to the Fed!)

I will just dismiss all of the negativity thrown at the Integra-7 and Roland for what it is and go make music with all of my gear, whether it has a E-mu, Ko, Ku, Ro or Ya name on it.

Bash away Jackie! "Negativity! Who told you to be negative? Did I tell you to be negative? I didn't tell you to be negative! Do you even know what the negativity does? Nobody knows what the negativity does!"

"Negativity in music...it's outrageous, egregious...preposterous!"

It's all about the sounds and what you do with them that counts...all the rest is just noise!

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:12 am

DH56, it looks to me as if you missed my main point about the Integra limitations.

It is clear that 128 voices won't let us use 16 parts multitimbral. That's not what I regard as the most serious limitation, though an Integra version with 256 voice polyphony plus full access to all sounds (without having to load banks into slots to get access) would probably be an interesting upgrade, even if it was more expensive.

My main point was direct sound switching in live situations. If I can't switch between many available sounds directly, during play, but would have to load whole banks before (no time for that live), then that heavily spoils the Integra for live use from my view, and even while recording at home it is an uncomfortable limitation, even if I can work around it. It's all there, and still I can't use it in the way I would want to.

If that doesn't bother you, that's fine with me, but it bothers other keyboarders I know as well, and that definitely has influence on Roland selling/not selling this device.

You use an Integra along with the JP80 despite the massive overlap of sounds? I would try to avoid such a more or less double investment (just for the sake of some older Roland sounds?).

DH56 · Post by **DH56** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:47 pm

If that doesn't bother you, that's fine with me, but it bothers other keyboarders I know as well, and that definitely has influence on Roland selling/not selling this device.

You use an Integra along with the JP80 despite the massive overlap of sounds? I would try to avoid such a more or less double investment (just for the sake of some older Roland sounds?).

I didn't miss your "main point" at all Jim, which was that the I-7 was not worth having due to these limitations. This is not the first thread where you have pointed this out ad infinitum. I got a chuckle out of the bloke who pointed out he "expected" to see you on this thread trashing Roland within a few replies!

I welcome your opion just like I welcome everyone elses. I am simply just pointing out that the module can be used very effectively despite those limitations, especially with that price for all it does. For those who can't because of the live situations you describe, bummer! They shouldn't buy it.

As far as the overlap in sound goes, I can tell you that there is very little of that. You need to understand the architecture of the JP-80 and the massive layering, filtering and effects that it has with the Live Set and Registrations modes. I was quite appalled at the way that the Jupiter-80 handles MIDI to be honest. A MIDI "controller it's not! Quite bizarre would be a more appropriate word, but that does not mean I am going to throw the baby out with the bath water. I MAKE it work in the Soundworld because of one thing...the SOUNDS that it puts out.

While it is true that the Integra-7 has the same SN synth tones, I approach it quite differently from the Jupiter because of the different layout. I also did not have several of the SRX expansions, and I won't tell you how much it would have cost to go try to get (much less find them on e-bay) all of them!

Bottom line is that it's only "half-baked" if you CHOOSE to see it that way. It's very obvious from a lot of your posts that you have an axe to grind with Roland and that's fine. A bad experience with a G6 or something. That's a bummer dude.

Sometimes the hyper negativity justs gets to be a bit overly dramatic and needs a counter balance. I consider it sad that some have to cling to one manufacturer like they are the cat's meow when there are so many beautiful sounds out there that compliment each other so magnificently!

I for one am going to use any sound that benefits the Soundworld! All the rest is just rubbish. Let's go make some music...

GregC · Post by **GregC** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:39 pm

DH56 wrote:
If that doesn't bother you, that's fine with me, but it bothers other keyboarders I know as well, and that definitely has influence on Roland selling/not selling this device.

You use an Integra along with the JP80 despite the massive overlap of sounds? I would try to avoid such a more or less double investment (just for the sake of some older Roland sounds?).
I didn't miss your "main point" at all Jim, which was that the I-7 was not worth having due to these limitations. This is not the first thread where you have pointed this out ad infinitum. I got a chuckle out of the bloke who pointed out he "expected" to see you on this thread trashing Roland within a few replies!

I welcome your opion just like I welcome everyone elses. I am simply just pointing out that the module can be used very effectively despite those limitations, especially with that price for all it does. For those who can't because of the live situations you describe, bummer! They shouldn't buy it.

As far as the overlap in sound goes, I can tell you that there is very little of that. You need to understand the architecture of the JP-80 and the massive layering, filtering and effects that it has with the Live Set and Registrations modes. I was quite appalled at the way that the Jupiter-80 handles MIDI to be honest. A MIDI "controller it's not! Quite bizarre would be a more appropriate word, but that does not mean I am going to throw the baby out with the bath water. I MAKE it work in the Soundworld because of one thing...the SOUNDS that it puts out.

While it is true that the Integra-7 has the same SN synth tones, I approach it quite differently from the Jupiter because of the different layout. I also did not have several of the SRX expansions, and I won't tell you how much it would have cost to go try to get (much less find them on e-bay) all of them!

Bottom line is that it's only "half-baked" if you CHOOSE to see it that way. It's very obvious from a lot of your posts that you have an axe to grind with Roland and that's fine. A bad experience with a G6 or something. That's a bummer dude.

Sometimes the hyper negativity justs gets to be a bit overly dramatic and needs a counter balance. I consider it sad that some have to cling to one manufacturer like they are the cat's meow when there are so many beautiful sounds out there that compliment each other so magnificently!

I for one am going to use any sound that benefits the Soundworld! All the rest is just rubbish. Let's go make some music...

I am surprised that the JP80 does not handle midi that well. I hope you are not just being ' negative ',

I use to have the Rd700GX . I thought it was a fantastic midi controller and was the centerpiece of my multi keyboard rig. Its disappointing that Roland
can't implement great features of one product into their flagship board.

Ooops, there goes that negative thing again.

BTW, I use to own a lot of Roland gear( various RD's, JV/Xp/Xr modules, SRx's, etc) over the past 2 decades. Many of the regulars on this forum have similar experience with Roland and Yamaha.

And you might enjoy this article

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 37790.html

Devnor · Post by **Devnor** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:01 pm

Wow Greg, what an interesting, musically revelant article. Inspite of a Wall Street Journal reporting, Roland is supporting users with free upgrades, new sounds and a product that has been 110% trouble free.

GregC · Post by **GregC** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:20 pm

Devnor wrote:Wow Greg, what an interesting, musically revelant article. Inspite of a Wall Street Journal reporting, Roland is supporting users with free upgrades, new sounds and a product that has been 110% trouble free.

looks like diverse and factual reporting has hit a nerve. Don't feel you need to read everything on the Internet

Devnor · Post by **Devnor** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:42 pm

The user experience seems to contradict your financial insight. Of course you're blinded to these things. Do you know where I can get some replacement cardboard spacers for my Kronos?

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:10 pm

DH56 wrote:I welcome your opion just like I welcome everyone elses. I am simply just pointing out that the module can be used very effectively despite those limitations, especially with that price for all it does. For those who can't because of the live situations you describe, bummer! They shouldn't buy it.

So we both agree about that point with other keyboarders. That's my main point.

Bottom line is that it's only "half-baked" if you CHOOSE to see it that way.

Can't agree here. It's half-baked IMO, if great sounds and functions are mixed with significant limitations and obstacles in practical use, especially if these limitations seem quite arbitrary. You may still want to use it, if that's your choice, but that doesn't make it less "half-baked" from my view.

It's very obvious from a lot of your posts that you have an axe to grind with Roland and that's fine. A bad experience with a G6 or something. That's a bummer dude.

I have used a lot of Roland keyboard gear, from an A70 masterkeyboard over the XV2020, Fantom X, Juno G and Fantom G (not speaking of the V-drums set and the DR 880 in my home studio) and kept the Juno G and two SRX boards. Bottom line from my view is that Roland got worse over the last years. From my view their product communication sucks more than that of any other keyboard company I ever met, and their products have become more and more of what I call "half-baked". The Fantom G has originally been delivered even without basic functionality described in the owner's manual, then been slightly updated to include basic functions of former products (multisampling), and then practically been abandoned in halfbaked state.

Sometimes the hyper negativity justs gets to be a bit overly dramatic and needs a counter balance. I consider it sad that some have to cling to one manufacturer like they are the cat's meow when there are so many beautiful sounds out there that compliment each other so magnificently!

I see nothing dramatic in stating the obvious.

And concerning clinging to one manufacturer, I think my signature tells enough.

I for one am going to use any sound that benefits the Soundworld! All the rest is just rubbish. Let's go make some music...

Agreed for the music making!
Else I won't use all sounds around, but only those that come with a UI I like to use. I got no sense and no time for the rest.

DH56 · Post by **DH56** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:56 pm

Well you won't catch me "tilting at windmills" lads!

Ha! The WSJ article was well worth it just to catch that Woody Allenism at the end!

@GregC...I just spent hours last night going through the Kronos RH3 thread (the old one...that has >120 pages) for the first time and I must say that I haven't had so much entertainment fun in a while. Still 60 pages to go and then it's off to the Kronos versus JP-80 thread! Tough crowd but I still think that old Bruce Lycheee held his own in there with a "hostile" crowd!

You know the old saying for the Hoi-Polloi, "opinions are like bung holes...everybody has one! Or, for the more astute, "quot homines...tot sententiae!"

Ah Jim, the limitations that you choose to see are the obstacles that I have already overcome in this thing called music. We'll just agree to disagree on that score mate! I make sound, irregardless of whether the UI's, gadgets, doo-dads are baked, half-baked, or still frozen! They're not my problem only because I choose to overcome them if they were a problem in the first place. Bottom line...music is the end game here...NOT TECHNOLOGY.

Let's go and make some sound...life's too bloody short to argue over whether the flippety floppers are flipping and flopping sufficiently to satisfy our incessant human need to feel superior!

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:24 pm

Greg, enjoyed reading the article: thanks for the link!

We have such discussions in Germany as well, where public life and especially companies often follow similar pseudo-religios rules of so-called positive thinking. Here too it has begun to become clear, that as a major guiding principle, it is just utterly unrealistic, and makes people rather sick and unsincere than happy the way it is.

Keeping a healthy dose of both seems to be a better way: doing things with conviction and in a positive way, as far as possible and sincere, but at the same time keeping a very realistic view at problems and negative factors, without denying them in any way - and also keeping an eye at real (economic or emotional) interets of others behind lots of hypocritic smiling faces.

Same for using the rack in question: it's great to do something with it if that's what works for you, and it is just as good to leave it, if you don't want to deal with the limitations. Nothing wrong with both ways.

GregC · Post by **GregC** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:41 pm

jimknopf wrote:Greg, enjoyed reading the article: thanks for the link!

We have such discussions in Germany as well, where public life and especially companies often follow similar pseudo-religios rules of so-called positive thinking. Here too it has begun to become clear, that as a major guiding principle, it is just utterly unrealistic, and makes people rather sick and unsincere than happy the way it is.

Keeping a healthy dose of both seems to be a better way: doing things with conviction and in a positive way, as far as possible and sincere, but at the same time keeping a very realistic view at problems and negative factors, without denying them in any way - and also keeping an eye at real (economic or emotional) interets of others behind lots of hypocritic smiling faces.

Same for using the rack in question: it's great to do something with it if that's what works for you, and it is just as good to leave it, if you don't want to deal with the limitations. Nothing wrong with both ways.

Hi Jim, glad you enjoyed that WSJ article. Its clear that complex problems cannot be simply solved by putting a smiley face on everything.

I have worked for a variety of large corporations for 30 years.
American business gets locked into spinning the Vincent Peale/Dale Carnegie ..
"In American corporations, perhaps the most widely accepted doctrine of the "cult of positivity" is the importance of setting big, audacious goals for an organization, etc etc"

I enjoy the pragmatism and the ' balanced set of facts' presented by you and others on this forum. There is nothing negative about that. Its realism.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:30 am

jimknopf wrote:an Integra version with 256 voice polyphony plus full access to all sounds (without having to load banks into slots to get access) would probably be an interesting upgrade, even if it was more expensive.

Simple answer, if you don't mind it being more expensive: Get a pair of Integra-7s. Then you have 256 voice polyphony and 8 slots worth of SRX sounds (for not much more than a Jupiter 80, which gets you the 256 polyphony and none of the SRX sounds).

But I like the suggestion earlier in the thread about getting more out of an Integra by combining it with a Kronos. Unlike the SuperNatural sounds, the SRX sounds are pretty much straight samples and should sound and play very much the same if sampled into the Kronos. So if there are a handful of SRX sounds you want to access even after filling the 4 slots, you should be able to get them into the Kronos. (And really, I don't think anyone needs access to sounds from all 12 cards at once. I mean, two of the cards are just acoustic piano sounds, and are probably superseded by the other pianos available anyway. Same with the card full of EPs, and especially if you have the Kronos EPs at your disposal.)

The other big complaint about the Integra is the small number of user "combi" presets (to use Korg terminology)... but it is a rack module, and that can be addressed in the controller. And indeed, Kronos solves the problem again... you can use Kronos Combis to create and store many more combinations of Integra sounds.