Need a little convincing

Discussion relating to the Korg Kronos Workstation.

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TheoG
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Need a little convincing

Post by TheoG »

Hello everyone.

Thinking about buying a new synth. My main keyboard, which I love dearly, is a K2500s, however it's getting a bit lonely and in need of more modern company. Technically I am not a Korg owner (although there's an old OASYS card at the bottom of some box somewhere in my closet, so perhaps that counts :) ).

For the past few weeks I've researched several synths going so far as to fully read the manuals and sampling whatever is available on YT, ( I read through a good chunk of post on this very forum!) Anyway, I'm facing an impasse of sorts in reaching a final decision. Hence this post, and I would really appreciate some objective input to help me out.

I'm down to the Kronos vs V-Synth GT. One of the two will be bought by next week.

First, I'm really not interested in the "best" most realistic piano, EP, Hammond, horns etc. that any other synth has to offer - I'm a bit of a Kurzweil snob in this regard. I'm looking for ethereal abstraction, grand electronica, vintage inspired sound creation and overall prog rock leads and quirky pad montages.

I fully understand the limitations of the Roland (older synth, very digital sounding, limited polyphony, price) but, man, that is one beast of a board from what I heard and read about it. Amazing controls and a wealth of complex synthesis possibilities. It's "raw" just begging to be molded. Unfortunately it's now a rare instrument and not available to play with in most stores.

I guess my point is that I don't want a rompler. I need a sophisticated and complex sound making architecture to delve into and complement the VAST engine I'm so used to. It's too bad that Korg markets the Kronos as a preset machine, though the 'Video Manual' YT videos touch on it's versatility, especially the AL1 and FM engines. I don;t think there was a synth with lousier presets than Kurzweil so I never judge them based on that.

So, do you think the Kronos competes with the V-Synth GT? My mouth waters at the Kronos hardware possibilities, PC connection, warmer sound. I can't get a sense of its possibilities beyond the pretty presets. One other factor nudging me in the direction of Kronos is this very forum and active friendly community.

Thanks a lot and sorry for this tome of a post.

Theo

BTW, if KARMA is just MIDI data, can it be transmitted to MIDI out, or is it strictly internal?
laandodeman
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Post by laandodeman »

My honest opinion? Kurzweil/VAST is 20th century. Kronos is 21st. I am a progrocker and LOVE the depth of programming possibilities of the Kronos. Just found out for example that the AL1 is capable of creating Moogy raw wah leads such as this one in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrFzyy0Ry0c (also check this thread
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=83139)

It takes some time to master the AL1, but if you do (I am not there yet, by the way), there is no competitor. And I understand that you are not afraid of programming yourself.

The most convincing argument for the Kronos is that if you would really need sounds from the competitor (for example the V-synth), just sample it and put it in your Kronos with a user-sample bank.
:D :D :D :D :D
SanderXpander
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Post by SanderXpander »

The Kronos offers a LOT more than the VSynth.
However, if you're only interested in a unique sound design machine for in the studio, something different from everything else you have, I would probably go for the VSynth. The Kronos has many excellent sounding engines including some capable of more experimental sounds. But apart from STR1 it doesn't actually bring anything to the table that you couldn't do equally well will a very common plugin or your Kurz. Not so for the VSynth, as far as I'm aware.
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Post by Vlad_77 »

I've never EVER seen any promo materials that even hint that Korg markets Kronos as a "preset machine." I would love to read that ad copy. In fact, Korg's selling point is the creative possibilities in sound design with its nine synth engines.

I am a Kurzweil aficionado as well and Dynamic VAST eclipses VAST. Cascade mode alone offers insane possibilities. But this is a Korg forum, and make no mistake, Kronos is anything but a preset machine. Yep, there are tons of patches, but our beloved Kurzweils also have tons of patches. Kronos is an insanely powerful sound designer's wet dream.

I want a second Kronos and will probably get one in August. Having said that, I am also eyeing one of the V-Synths if I can get both without breaking the limited bank. Given your criteria, it seems that V-Synth could be your baby. If money is not a big issue for you, you could get a V-Synth 2.0 for about 795 USD and a Kronos 61 for about 1800 US then you have the best of both. Remember, you can always "X" a first generation Kronos on your own but you will void the warranty. Alternatively, a service center could do it for you if you are hesitant. If you are wealthy, get a Kronos AND a V-Synth GT!

Have a look at Qui Robinez's excellent tutorials that cover - pardon the pun - a vast array of Kronos sound design possibilities. Qui has created stunning sounds from the HD-1 (ROMpler and Wavestation synth) that blow the ROMplers from Yamaha and Roland out of the water. He's also done great work with MS-20 as well and he is talking about preparing a tutorial on AL-1.

As a Kurzweil owner, you will LOVE MOD-7. Not to dispute SanderXpander here whose opinions I greatly respect, but, MOD-7 is in many ways as deep as a Kurzweil. If anything, Korg may have erred when it stressed that MOD-7 is the FM component. MOD-7 is a mangling, truly vast monster synth. Okay, you know that with Kurzweils we can take a snare drum keymap and created lush evolving pads which in itself is pretty cool. Now imagine wiring your own carriers and modulators - including your own samples or PCM sounds and processing them through a VAST-like environment. MOD-7 will simultaneously appeal to yoir Kurz snobbery (that snobbery is a GOOD thing) while allowing you to explore amazing new vistas. Lastly, I stated earlier that Dynamic VAST eclipses VAST and I should expand on that. Your Kurz allows three layers and you are limited to a fixed amount of DSPs. The PC3 series allows for 32 layers per program! Also, Cascade Mode allows you to route the DSP of one patch into the DSP of another, and you can create your own DSPs. Now combine all of that if you want to setups and the sounds are insanely experimental. VAST is powerful to be sure but Dynamic VAST is like commanding the starship Enterprise instead of driving a Lamborghini, so in a sense, the K2500 doesn't compare as favorably to Kronos as does a PC3 series. Kronos is like commanding the Sovereign class Enterprise. (Yeah, I'm a sci-fi geek ;) )

Back again to V-Synth and Kronos: SanderXpander nailed it when he talkked about STR-1. This is a physical modelling synth that has not been marketed properly. Get past the whole notion of using STR-1 as a way to create guitars, basses, violins, etc., and look deeper - something Kurz musicians are used to doing. You design a "string." You decide what it is made of, the excitation and dispersion of the string - how it reacts to being plucked or scraped. Some of the pads I have heard created with STR-1 are some of the most amazing examples of sound creation in any synth; they sound nothing like stringed instruments at all and are very much what you are wanting.

V-Synth offers extreme possibilities for sample mangling. Also, the Time Trip feature allows you to play with audio in real time, reversing it ala Beatles, freezing it in real time, or really, whatever you want to do. If you get the Vocal Designer card for the V-Synth 2.0 - the Vocal Designer is included on the GT - the sound processing capabilities are endless. The V-Synth does a lot more besides and Roland and Roland Clan are great resources for what V-Synth can really do.

In my humble, hack musician opinion, you cannot go wrong with either instrument if your thing is creating sounds that no one had done before. The only thing that might be of some concern is the relative limited polyphony of the V-Synth, thus, my suggestion of getting a V-Synth 2.0 and a Kronos (non-X) 61. My head explodes just thinking of the possibilities of what you could do with a Kurzweil, Kronos, and V-Synth all in the same rig!

I apologize for the long post, and I hope somehow it was helpful. I want to close though by reiterating that Kronos is not a preset machine. There are a number of reasons why that SSD is on there and sound design is chief among them IMHO.

Best of luck with your decision!

Regards,
Vlad

PS: I know you didn't ask, but a Waldorf Blofeld might be another possibility. These powerful modules sell for a paltry 395 Euros or less and are really crazy for sound creation! Blofelds are pure synths - no ROMpling anywhere. I am getting one of these regardless because the price is right and I've always wanted a Waldorf anyhow. For the price of a week of ciggies, I can get an insane monster. :)
Current gear: Kronos, Jupiter 80, Kurzweil PC3,Roland Fantom X8, Roland XV-88 (yep, its old, but the ACTION is heaven and those XV-3080 sounds are still wonderful for me), Radias-R, Motif ES (yeah it's older but I love the guitars ;) )
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JPWC
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Post by JPWC »

Don't get mad at me, but..........

I sell the kurz and get the V-synth GT & Kronos. Now that would be a vast sounding pair. :D
Kronos-6, Krome, M3, Radias, KingKorg, microKorg, KP-2, KP-3, KO-1, KO-1 PRO, Karma, microX, monotron, monotribe, PadCONTROL, Wavedrum Mini, Volca Keys, Beats, Bass, Sample, monotron Duo & Delay, microArranger, M1, Wavestation, Volca Sample, Keys, Beats & Bass, MS-20

JD-XA, JD-Xi, Aira (system 1, TB3, TR8, MX-1), Prophet 12, Mopho X4, Jupiter-80, FA-06, D50, CS1x, CZ101, DX200, AN200, analogFOUR, MachineDrum, MonoMachine, Motif XF6, Virus Snow, Nord Lead 2X, OP-1, MFOS, Tenori-on, QY100, QY70, meeblip se, miniBrute, microBrute, Bass Station 2
metallo
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Post by metallo »

I have a vsynth gt and a kronos73, it's not true that the kronos offers a lot more, they are just very different machines and I find them complementary...actually having both in my live gear it's amazing.
Bertotti
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Post by Bertotti »

I like Vlad_77's idea get both a kronos 61 or x61 and the synth. Depending on your budget and desire for 61 or more keys this seems like a great idea.

One thought since you are very familiar with the Kurz already why not upgrade to a Kurz with dynamic VAST? From the description it sounds like you could cover a lot of ground with it.
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Shakil
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Post by Shakil »

metallo wrote:I have a vsynth gt and a kronos73, it's not true that the kronos offers a lot more, they are just very different machines and I find them complementary...actually having both in my live gear it's amazing.
KRONOS does offer lot more features overall... afterall KRONOS is audio/midi workstation + synths, while VSynth is only a synth..
Roland Fantom-G6 ARX1, Korg M3-m exb-Radias, Korg Z1-18v, Roland MC-808, Roland MC-909, Korg microKontrol.
TheoG
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Post by TheoG »

JPWC wrote:Don't get mad at me, but..........

I sell the kurz .... :D
Never!! You can pry it from my cold dead hands!!! :lol:

Seriously, I'm looking into the PC3K8.
TheoG
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Post by TheoG »

laandodeman wrote:My honest opinion? Kurzweil/VAST is 20th century. Kronos is 21st. ....
Hmm...well, yes, yet here we are in the 21st Century collectively spending many million$$ on developing and buying emulations of instruments first introduced centuries ago and endlessly bickering about the results.

In the 1970's thre was this great T-shirt with portraits of Beethoven, Coltrane, and Hendrix, indicating the three iconic pillars in music history.

Subjective, of course, but my synth equivalent to that would be: Moog, Kurzweil, and [your choice here].
TheoG
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Post by TheoG »

Shakil wrote:.... while VSynth is only a synth..
BINGO!
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Synthoid
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Post by Synthoid »

JPWC wrote:Don't get mad at me, but..........

I sell the kurz
Me too. I used to own a Kurzweil K2661 and it never did much for me.

:(
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TheoG
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Post by TheoG »

Thanks to everyone for replying, especially Vlad.

I understand that my K2500 needs major updating and was about to buy the PC3K8 until I got word of probable new Kurz sampler release in 2014. Yes, rumors are a dime a dozen, we'll see.

Vlad's and other recommending I buy both actually made sense. Usually I avoid getting more than one piece of equipment at the same time. One can get too distracted and giddy. This timeI dove in and placed an order for the Kronos 61. Meanwhile I'm looking for a Vsynth. Plan is to eventually sell one or the other when I finally decide to upgrade to the PC3K or newer. Keeping the Kurz for at least another year.

So, great!

Theo
SanderXpander
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Post by SanderXpander »

I'm not a great expert on MOD7, I've always assumed it to be essentially comparable to e.g. NI's FM8. Not sure FM8 lets you load a sample as one oscillator but other than that, is it really that different?

So that's where my comment came from that the only "unique" thing Kronos offers is STR1 - the others are relatively simply replaced by plugs or the Kurz, if not 1:1 soundwise at least in a general sense;
SGX1 - Ivory (and the OP is not really interested anyway)
EP1 - Scarbee (and the OP is not really interested anyway)
CX3 - B4 or the Kurz (and the OP is not really interested anyway)
HD1 - Kontakt
Polysix - Korg Legacy collection
MS20 - Korg Legacy collection
AL1 - any smattering of modern VA plugs, or the Kurz
MOD7 - FM8
STR1 - don't really know anything directly comparable

To me it's a huge compliment that the Kronos manages all this, and since I use it exclusively live it's the best tool I've ever had. But in the OPs situation I can imagine a VSynth being more interesting, as it does some things that are not readily available elsewhere and is generally good at weird sounds, pads and leads.
SanderXpander
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Post by SanderXpander »

TheoG wrote:Thanks to everyone for replying, especially Vlad.

I understand that my K2500 needs major updating and was about to buy the PC3K8 until I got word of probable new Kurz sampler release in 2014. Yes, rumors are a dime a dozen, we'll see.

Vlad's and other recommending I buy both actually made sense. Usually I avoid getting more than one piece of equipment at the same time. One can get too distracted and giddy. This timeI dove in and placed an order for the Kronos 61. Meanwhile I'm looking for a Vsynth. Plan is to eventually sell one or the other when I finally decide to upgrade to the PC3K or newer. Keeping the Kurz for at least another year.

So, great!

Theo
Well that's even better :)
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