Rebooting Kronos X response from Korg Tech ...

[shaneblyth]

Finally got onto a New Zealand Korg Technician and had a long chat re my KronosX and what has happened too it.
Can't beat taking to a real Tech guy.

I told him how it had rebooted 4 times in 4 weeks. Mentioned peoples response on here and the one guy who had ram issues and that seems like others never get a reboot even after years of playing.

Bottom line we arrived at:
If its ram it would normally be a startup hang. Mine reboots and then hangs but a fresh start always works fine. It also would be reproducible. Mine isn't. He said he had seen several Kronos with faulty Ram or poorly seated ram. Didn't sound like this was the problem with mine especially as I said I had purposely playing like a maniac on ti , very heavy on the keys, and even shaken the heck out of it and no reboot/crash.

Next thing he asked: Did it always do it at the same venue. If so it could be a power supply issue. Well I thought it has only ever done it with my UPS attached , never done it at home where it gets the most use and I never plug the UPS in so I am going to try using it without the ups everywhere, no i don't gig a lot, and see if it does it again. I don't want to ship it over a thousand miles away to the technician and get no result or get it smashed by the couriers which he said has happened a few times.

SO well see how it goes, Hoping tis just a UPS issue, its a cheap unit but I did get the sine wave one but its a Chinese cheapie so who knows what goes on in there.

[John Hendry]

The tech asked: "Did it always do it at the same venue?"

Well you could have looked here first as this infrequent rebooting problem due to AC issues has been covered before and IMO your tech's question is the likely cause. If it ONLY does it using the UPS then odds are you found the problem.

Too bad (well not really) you live in NZ because I have seen the Powerware 9120s sell for next to nothing on Ebay and elsewhere in the US. I paid over $500 for the 1000 VA model and that was at dealer cost in quantity. These are great units that cost a lot when new retail and use double-conversion online topology to provide an uninterrupted close to perfect sine wave and separates you from the nasties found in ANY normal AC supply, and not only protects your equipment from a 100% power failure, but power supply sags & surges, brownouts, line noise, high voltage spikes, frequency variations, switching transients, AND harmonic distortion, the reason my neighborhood used them, which was like magic to see so many problems and damage from the AC just stop.

Based on my experience as well as too many friends & neighbors in Hawaii that shared in it (as well as Comp USA & other businesses through returns) electronic equipment protected by such a unit or run off balanced AC it's entire life will last much longer than equipment that is not protected. And with balanced AC will even sound better especially if recording as jitter is reduced. You can see it on a good TV too if you know what to look for. With CE rated power supplies in use things have improved somewhat but AC is not to be trusted as IMO when good (tested) chips run at proper temps fail it's usually because the AC damaged them, not heat or internal "ware & tear", and although caps do age since going to balanced AC 20 yrs ago not one has failed and I still have an IBM P2 running Win 98 for the OASYS PCI card that's still working without any signs of age related problems other than the OS and software..... and not being used enough although I try to turn it on monthly with everything else not in use.

Since AC protection is a one time investment that generally lasts... 20 years for me so far, I consider it a needed foundation and am sure it has now paid itself off in avoiding repair bills & heartache. With valuable older gear I feel it's a must as parts are hard to come by if available at all. All it take is an instant and I've watched it happen in real time and demonstrated it to "experts". LOL Long story...... but I'd dump that UPS ASP because without an analyzer you really don't know what it's doing. Better safe that sorry especially with a KronosX.

[DennyC]

Great post, I totally support the concept!

[Rigel]

Thanks for sharing your experience.

[shaneblyth]

The tech asked: "Did it always do it at the same venue?"

Well you could have looked here first as this infrequent rebooting problem due to AC issues has been covered before and IMO your tech's question is the likely cause. If it ONLY does it using the UPS then odds are you found the problem.

.

thanks
I did run a thread asking here first and no one mentioned power supply issues. Before I bought the UPS I read a thread here and people mentioned about having to be sine waves and the model i got states it is sine wave model. I didn't see anyone mention the need to buy a real expensive model. I'll go back and read things more closely so thanks for the heads up. Heres a link to my post asking : http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... sc&start=0

[seapea]

people mentioned about having to be sine waves and the model i got states it is sine wave model. I didn't see anyone mention the need to buy a real expensive model.

Shayne, a fellow kiwi here (New Zealander). Had a Kronos 73 for about 2 years now. I successfully use a locally supplied UPS from JAYCAR. Digitech MP5222 in combination with a FURMAN AC-210A Power conditioner. (available from infortek in Auckland). Used in many different venues , along with my software synths. Installed 2nd SSD and extra ram. Apart from having the total keybed replaced for legendary note cutoff issue, no problems.

[LivePsy]

If its ram it would normally be a startup hang

Motherboard and ram faults are often too intermittent for that. Also suspect the temp, humidity and amount of vibration - all of these could trigger a crash.

It may be the AC power, but that would also affect other electronic equipment also.

B

[shaneblyth]

people mentioned about having to be sine waves and the model i got states it is sine wave model. I didn't see anyone mention the need to buy a real expensive model.

Shane, a fellow kiwi here (New Zealander). Had a Kronos 73 for about 2 years now. I successfully use a locally supplied UPS from JAYCAR. Digitech MP5222 in combination with a FURMAN AC-210A Power conditioner. (available from infortek in Auckland). Used in many different venues , along with my software synths. Installed 2nd SSD and extra ram. Apart from having the total keybed replaced for legendary note cutoff issue, no problems.

Hey a Kiwi Bro. Nice where are you situated? I'm in Queenstown.
So you use 2 different pieces of equipment, a Digitech MP5222 with a Furman power conditioner? Sounds interesting. Why 2 different items? I thought a UPS did sort of condition the power?
Ok just looked and see the Furman unit you use for $300 NZD I wonder if I could use this before the current UPS I have which is a Powercom War-600A.

[seapea]

Why 2 different items? I thought a UPS did sort of condition the power?
Ok just looked and see the Furman unit you use for $300 NZD I wonder if I could use this before the current UPS I have which is a Powercom War-600A

I am in Auckland. There are a number of different parameters POWER CONDITIONING covers. UPS for me is so dont have to wait for long reboot if power lost temporarily. Some voltage regulate as well, and have simple noise filtering. Furman power conditioner is mainly for quality noise filter, spike arrester, and Extreme voltage shutdown. There is generally a lot of noise and hash in the mains and earth leads at venues.
Like you said, I would leave your UPS out of the equation at this stage. See what happens. But have a read of Furman articles. You'll get the idea. I do PA sound installs as well, and use power conditioners as standard with Digital Mixers.

[shaneblyth]

Why 2 different items? I thought a UPS did sort of condition the power?
Ok just looked and see the Furman unit you use for $300 NZD I wonder if I could use this before the current UPS I have which is a Powercom War-600A

I am in Auckland. There are a number of different parameters POWER CONDITIONING covers. UPS for me is so dont have to wait for long reboot if power lost temporarily. Some voltage regulate as well, and have simple noise filtering. Furman power conditioner is mainly for quality noise filter, spike arrester, and Extreme voltage shutdown. There is generally a lot of noise and hash in the mains and earth leads at venues.
Like you said, I would leave your UPS out of the equation at this stage. See what happens. But have a read of Furman articles. You'll get the idea. I do PA sound installs as well, and use power conditioners as standard with Digital Mixers.

cheers just talking to Furman local suppliers and they said the UPS should be online pure sine wave I don't know if this is exactly that I thought it said sine wave but online sine wave is that the same? Anyway at venues everyone runs off the same powerpoint and of course there are a few lights, powered PA speakers DI's, monitors and subs bass amps so thats a lot of stuff to run so maybe i need to throw the firman in there between the power and my kronos at least. The UPS was only for people tripping over plugs and disconnecting me

[shaneblyth]

The tech asked: "Did it always do it at the same venue?"

Well you could have looked here first as this infrequent rebooting problem due to AC issues has been covered before and IMO your tech's question is the likely cause. If it ONLY does it using the UPS then odds are you found the problem.

Too bad (well not really) you live in NZ because I have seen the Powerware 9120s sell for next to nothing on Ebay and elsewhere in the US. I paid over $500 for the 1000 VA model and that was at dealer cost in quantity. These are great units that cost a lot when new retail and use double-conversion online topology to provide an uninterrupted close to perfect sine wave and separates you from the nasties found in ANY normal AC supply, and not only protects your equipment from a 100% power failure, but power supply sags & surges, brownouts, line noise, high voltage spikes, frequency variations, switching transients, AND harmonic distortion, the reason my neighborhood used them, which was like magic to see so many problems and damage from the AC just stop.

Based on my experience as well as too many friends & neighbors in Hawaii that shared in it (as well as Comp USA & other businesses through returns) electronic equipment protected by such a unit or run off balanced AC it's entire life will last much longer than equipment that is not protected. And with balanced AC will even sound better especially if recording as jitter is reduced. You can see it on a good TV too if you know what to look for. With CE rated power supplies in use things have improved somewhat but AC is not to be trusted as IMO when good (tested) chips run at proper temps fail it's usually because the AC damaged them, not heat or internal "ware & tear", and although caps do age since going to balanced AC 20 yrs ago not one has failed and I still have an IBM P2 running Win 98 for the OASYS PCI card that's still working without any signs of age related problems other than the OS and software..... and not being used enough although I try to turn it on monthly with everything else not in use.

Since AC protection is a one time investment that generally lasts... 20 years for me so far, I consider it a needed foundation and am sure it has now paid itself off in avoiding repair bills & heartache. With valuable older gear I feel it's a must as parts are hard to come by if available at all. All it take is an instant and I've watched it happen in real time and demonstrated it to "experts". LOL Long story...... but I'd dump that UPS ASP because without an analyzer you really don't know what it's doing. Better safe that sorry especially with a KronosX.

John I've ended up dumping my UPS and bought one of the pure sine wave models http://www.cpsww.eu/products/ups_system ... pfclcd.htm

[John Hendry]

Looks good. It's been a while since I researched the UPS tech in use but I can see the CP1300 is more efficient than the Powerware UPS's that use online double-conversion. Not sure how it’s line interactive AVR deals with HD but I doubt that was your problem and it looks like a nice piece of equipment that can handle a lighter load with 100% capability unlike the PW's double-conversion which is a good thing with the small current needs of the Kronos.

While on the subject I should mention that it’s important when using any device with EMI filtering usually associated with surge protection that you don’t plug one unit with EMI filtering into another one with filtering as the “outcome” will be unknown and could be detrimental. I have Isobar SP’s with long cords and have had to warn people not to daisy chain them with each other and took one apart and turned it into an unfiltered 8 outlet to use with my balanced isolation transformer as an extension cord for that reason…… plus it was “examined” by some “experts” that’s homemade computer power supply they spent two days building at an estimated cost of $12,800 (2 guys, 2 days x $400 an hour vs. $100 for a standard test unit) started to smoke when “someone” changed things (input harmonics by plugging straight into the wall outlet instead of the BIT that at that time was a new invention) and asked them to switch from HD to liner load testing after catching the high HD reading on video they hoped we missed as it was impossibly high (and coming straight out of the wall socket;-). I’m no electrical expert but I know what a tuning fork is and can be used for…. and what can happen and after that who knows what they did to the Isobar they took apart and “tested” looking (?) for the cause of what I was told by Furman’s experts was obvious HD.

Human’s waist so much energy being dishonest with each other and trying to hide the reality of their behavior that if everyone suddenly stopped doing it…. it would probably blow everyone’s mind. So having good surge protection is important….. just in case something unlikely but theoretically possible happens. You just never know when Murphy will show up for a show down. {a}

7:45 seconds @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TQZ-2iMUR0

[shaneblyth]

Looks good. It's been a while since I researched the UPS tech in use but I can see the CP1300 is more efficient than the Powerware UPS's that use online double-conversion. Not sure how it’s line interactive AVR deals with HD but I doubt that was your problem and it looks like a nice piece of equipment that can handle a lighter load with 100% capability unlike the PW's double-conversion which is a good thing with the small current needs of the Kronos.

While on the subject I should mention that it’s important when using any device with EMI filtering usually associated with surge protection that you don’t plug one unit with EMI filtering into another one with filtering as the “outcome” will be unknown and could be detrimental. I have Isobar SP’s with long cords and have had to warn people not to daisy chain them with each other and took one apart and turned it into an unfiltered 8 outlet to use with my balanced isolation transformer as an extension cord for that reason…… plus it was “examined” by some “experts” that’s homemade computer power supply they spent two days building at an estimated cost of $12,800 (2 guys, 2 days x $400 an hour vs. $100 for a standard test unit) started to smoke when “someone” changed things (input harmonics by plugging straight into the wall outlet instead of the BIT that at that time was a new invention) and asked them to switch from HD to liner load testing after catching the high HD reading on video they hoped we missed as it was impossibly high (and coming straight out of the wall socket;-). I’m no electrical expert but I know what a tuning fork is and can be used for…. and what can happen and after that who knows what they did to the Isobar they took apart and “tested” looking (?) for the cause of what I was told by Furman’s experts was obvious HD.

Human’s waist so much energy being dishonest with each other and trying to hide the reality of their behavior that if everyone suddenly stopped doing it…. it would probably blow everyone’s mind. So having good surge protection is important….. just in case something unlikely but theoretically possible happens. You just never know when Murphy will show up for a show down. {a}

7:45 seconds @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TQZ-2iMUR0

Yes, thanks I really appreciated your input on this. Helped me a lot get a handle on this. I'm just watching that 1958 interview you linked too. Really interesting.
Thanks again.

[Davidb]

The tech asked: "Did it always do it at the same venue?" ...

John I've ended up dumping my UPS and bought one of the pure sine wave models http://www.cpsww.eu/products/ups_system ... pfclcd.htm

Great advice.

I know the device myself and I can recomend it as well.