How to sync Kronos and Sonar?

salomao · Post by **salomao** » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:38 pm

Hello

I am desperately looking for a solution that would allow me to sync my kronos and Sonar X3 (wich I never used before) when recording audio tracks.

Here is a descripttion of my quest.

What I want to do:

Record my Kronos midi traks as audio traks to use in Sonar. From there I can edit any audio tracks, join, cut and so on. Finally, I could pick up the final product (an entire song for exemple) and import it back to kronos as a sigle audio track that I could use as a backing track.

What I am doing:

I have my kronos conected to my PC trough a USB cable. Sonar Recognizes my Kronos and use it as a midi input.
I create a new project, add an audio track, select the tempo/beat to match it with the tempo/beat of my recorded track/song, and press record. Then, I press play on my kronos to play the track/song and everything is properly recorded.

The problem:

I can’t control the exact moment the sound is recorded. That is, if I am lucky, I will press the kronos start/stop button at the exact time the Sonar mark is in the begining of a measure and so the song will be syncronized with Sonar, but if there is a small delay, even if it is just a fraction of a second, the audio file will be out of sync with Sonar.
If I want to record 16 midi tracks as audio tracks, you can imagine how hard will it be to get them all exactly synchronized…

The solution??

Is there any way I can control the moment Sonar starts recording? I mean, isn’t there an option to set Sonar to record exactly when I press the start/top button on Kronos? If yes, how can I set it??
If such option doesn’t exist, how can I solve my sync problem?

Grateful for your help in advance

Salomao

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:11 pm

If you set the Kronos' clock to external/USB in the Global/Midi page it should follow Sonar's start/stop signal.

salomao · Post by **salomao** » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:53 pm

@SanderXpander

I think I understand what you mean, but I believe that solution would come in handy IF I wanted to record something on kronos, that is, pressing start buton in Sonar woul make my kronos to start recording. The problem is I want to do the opposite, I want kronos to start playing as soon as I press the REC button in Sonar.

Am I wrong?

salomao · Post by **salomao** » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:06 pm

@SanderXpander

I tryed your tip. Kronos sequencer now waits for an extwernal command to start playing (even if I press the star/stop button kronos sequencer won't play).
However, I cant find any weay to make sonar send a command to start kronos.

I select an empty audio track in sonar an press the "record" button. The track starts recording but it doesn't record anything since kronos won't start playing. At the end I would still have an empty track because there was no signal imput.

The problem wold be solved IF kronos started playing when I press the record button in Sonar.

Don't know what to do

Ian26 · Post by **Ian26** » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:28 am

Hi salomao,

I think I have 2 Options to help you to you problem if I understand you correctly.

1st Option: You could save your Kronos Sequence as a MIDI file.

- Go to Disk mode on your Kronos and press the Save tab.
- Insert a USB Device into any of the USB ports on the Kronos (you will be saving your Midi File to this Device)
- At the bottom of the Screen, Select the Drive Select to the USB Device you just connected.
- At top right hand corner of Screen press drop down menu and Press Save to Standard Midi File, and Re-Name file and select Format 1 (Format 1 will save each MIDI channel to a separate track.) and Press Save.
- Remove the USB and Open the Midi file in Sonar x3.
- On your Kronos, go back to your Kronos Sequence main Screen.
- Once the Midi File is open in Sonar, check to see if all midi tracks are set to receive and send to the Kronos. Then press Play in Sonar and you should here your song being played by Sonar as a Midi File.(You can also edit this file in Sonar if you need to fix anything)
- Now you can Open a Audio Track to Record the Song exactly in sync to what ever tempo you want or you can record each track as a separate Audio Track and add Eq, Effects Etc... Then Save that as a Single Audio File and Load into Kronos to play along with.

2nd Option (Audio Marker): Recording a Audio Marker to Sync to in Sonar.

- On your Kronos move your Song sequence three Bars Forward.
- Now record a single note in the First beat of the first Bar. (use a piano or a Drum sound that will sound immediately when you play the note.
- In Sonar Open up a New Audio Track and Record your Song from the First Bar of your sequence so you can now see that first note you just recorded. You can now use that First Note as a start Marker to sync your track.

Hope this helps, personally I would go with option 1 more flexibility.

Cheers, Ian26

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:20 am

Oh oops you'll have to tell Sonar to send a start/stop command. It's somewhere in the midi options, either start/stop, MTC (Midi Time Code) or MMC (Midi Machine Control) should work. It's been a VERY long time since I used this with my Triton but it should work.

Corgy · Post by **Corgy** » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:08 am

From another Kronos/SONAR user ...

The first solution of Ian26 of having the midi of your song in Sonar sounds pretty to the point of getting best synchronisation results. Exporting from Kronos to Sonar via midi file/usb stick or recording the midi directly in Sonar get's you there easily.

There is also another alternative. Do you know that you can record (freeze) the Kronos midi content to Kronos audio content (audio tracks) in the Kronos and then export the *.wav files from the Kronos to Sonar?

Depending on your setup it could also be considered, to use SONAR as your midi sequencer and Kronos as expander only. If you detach the Kronos keyboard from producing internal sounds directly (this works with allmost every midi instrument) you can route the Kronos keyboard output in SONAR to dedicated midi tracks and route the midi from SONAR back to Kronos (here a combi or programm would be sufficient) to generate the sounds. Latency on midi is short enough to work fine. As a final step the recording of the Kronos audio in SONAR with adequate synchronisation should be not a problem.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:14 am

On the long term, I also think using Sonar as sequencer is a lot easier and quicker.

For now, I think saving/converting/exporting/importing midi or audio is at least as time consuming as recording the tracks into Sonar with the correct sync settings.

Just my two cents.

salomao · Post by **salomao** » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:22 am

Hello

Thank you all for your precious help and tips. I'll try those solutions as soon as I can.

@Ian26:

The first option you pointed seems to be the best and I will try it in first place, however, concerning to option 2 I stil, have a question (note that I am a totally noob in Sonar wich I never used before): How do I set a Start Marker in Sonar? If I understand you correctly, that first recorded note would be a reference and, after recording the audio file, I could move the created wav file tho match the tempo marks in Sonar. Is that right??

@Corgy

No, I didn't know I could record and export my midi files as *.wav files directly in Kronos. Could you exxplain me how to do it???

@All

Once again, thank you for you precious help and forgive me for my poor english.

Salomao

AdDeRoo · Post by **AdDeRoo** » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:51 pm

SanderXpander wrote:Oh oops you'll have to tell Sonar to send a start/stop command. It's somewhere in the midi options, either start/stop, MTC (Midi Time Code) or MMC (Midi Machine Control) should work. It's been a VERY long time since I used this with my Triton but it should work.

Sander et al:

It also depends on the Sonar version: the basic Sonar version does not have this option (I recently checked that). You'll need the Studio or Producer version for the time coding

Corgy · Post by **Corgy** » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:41 pm

Here is my quick and dirty method to bounce midi to audio. It's not that "one button hit" thing as for a VST in SONAR, but it does the job.

Just record the output of the Kronos to audio tracks internally using the sequencer mode.

Each instrument of a midi track is routed to an output channel (like L/R). Each audio track allows definition of it's input channel. You can select each of the "external" or "internal" inputs from the drop down menu and record accordingly.

If the output channel of a midi track and the input channel of an audio track are the same, than both are on the same "bus" and you can record from midi to audio directly in the Kronos. If you need to record stereo, than you need a pair of audio tracks (left/right). You can record single instruments but also mixdowns. Just select or define the output/input channels as required.

There might be a better or quicker way to do this ... let's see what others suggest ...

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:04 pm

AdDeRoo wrote:
SanderXpander wrote:Oh oops you'll have to tell Sonar to send a start/stop command. It's somewhere in the midi options, either start/stop, MTC (Midi Time Code) or MMC (Midi Machine Control) should work. It's been a VERY long time since I used this with my Triton but it should work.
Sander et al:

It also depends on the Sonar version: the basic Sonar version does not have this option (I recently checked that). You'll need the Studio or Producer version for the time coding

In X3, really? They made a point of it being "fully featured", just lacking all the extras like Melodyne, Addictive Drums, ProChannel, etc.

I wouldn't really know, I've always had Studio or Producer. Good catch.

AdDeRoo · Post by **AdDeRoo** » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:15 pm

AdDeRoo wrote: It also depends on the Sonar version: the basic Sonar version does not have this option (I recently checked that). You'll need the Studio or Producer version for the time coding

Actually, I was wrong here. The Audiosnap function is not included in the X3 basic version. Was mixing the two up. MTC seems to be in the basic X3, according to the X3 manual. Will check that again

Ian26 · Post by **Ian26** » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:24 pm

Hi Salomao,

Yes, you are correct. The first Note is a reference point which you can use to line up the audio file to the tempo. You must Cut/Delete the audio before that first note so can move the audio file to start at the first beat of the bar. I know this is not the easiest way to do things if you are a beginner.
I had to use this Technic once when I went to a Studio where I had done some Keyboard work for a Cover Track that a band had done that don't have a keyboard player. The Cover track was a Depeche Mode track, so I had a bit of work to do. They gave me their track that had a click track layed over the top so I could line up my track which I did as Midi track at home which I then took with me to the Studio to record my part of the track. One problem, at the studio they were running Pro Tools, but they didn't have the MIDI capabilities. (I have never used Pro Tools so I don't know why Pro Tools dosn't come with MIDI as Standard like every other DAW). The Recording Engineer lined up that First Note with there Track and it worked great. I had a Triton and Yamaha Motif so I use the sequencer of the Triton to play the MIDI track.

I still say use the Midi file option, as it is a better way of doing things.
Let us know how you get on.

Cheers,

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:33 am

Or just tick the box in Sonar to send MTC and MMC.