New Kurzweil Forte will be a Kronos challenger?

Francois · Post by **Francois** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:51 am

I don't see why this new Forte should be a challenger to the Kronos. If anything, the Forte will be a challenger for the RD-800, Nord Stage 2, etc. You don't buy a Forte for the same reason you buy a Kronos, and vice versa.

As much as I love my Kronos, I would not take it on stage with me as my main piano. The Set List is great, but I'd rather have the features proposed by the Forte for immediate control, favourite patch selections, easy control of external modules, dedicated transpose controls, etc.

Now, as the synth on top of the stage piano, that's another story. That's where I'd want my Kronos. And the fact it can also provides great pianos is a bonus, specially when you want a Rhodes on one and a Wurly on the other (for example). But it is ill suited to being a stage piano cum master controller.

In the studio, that's another story. The Kronos is now my main piano, hence going for the weighted keys option. And I would not want to get a Forte instead, since the Kronos gives me the same things, and more. But studio use is not stage use. In the studio, I want maximum features, not maximum ease of use.

Now, as much as previous Kurz since the return of the company, such as the PC3 series, have left me cold, I cannot help but feel an interest in the new Forte. If you read the specs:

http://kurzweil.com/product/forte/

then you see it's not rehashing VAST at all. For starters, I would want to try the 16Gb of pianos for myself, as well as see how that instant FlashPlay function works before passing judgement, but it feels like the Forte offers a lot of new features. As a stage piano, it has a lot going for it, on paper at least. The only concern is what sort of cost it is going to be sold for. But if the price is right, this baby should sell.

So no, the Forte will not be a challenger to the Kronos in my opinion. For that, we need to see what the long overdue K3000 will propose, if it ever comes out.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:00 am

Since I (and plenty of other people) don't actually use the sequencer, "workstation" portion of the Kronos is irrelevant to me. I do enjoy programming synth sounds and the Kronos is great for that of course. I haven't worked with VAST but so far the opinions seem to be it's way deeper yet a lot more opaque than anything on the Kronos.
The 16GB pianos were often toted by Korg as a game changer so I don't see why there is so little respect when another company follows suit, especially if they've done it with a technology that circumvents the K's 2min+ boot time. Many people also seem to like the Kurzweil clonewheel, and mainly had a lot of criticism on its tiny screen (for navigation) and outdated sampleset. Seeing as those seem to be addressed, I really wanna hear it. I wouldn't put it in my studio but I don't put my K88 there either.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:27 am

Bertotti wrote:My question would be, does it have VAST but with an improved interface? I think that would be a leap ahead for them.

Of course it has VAST inside! Just like Artis has VAST inside - Forte is an advanced Artis, in fact. Kurzweil is not going to get rid of what they invented any time soon - they will only build up on it.

VAST is not going to be deep-editable on Forte - this will be done via editing software for Windows, OSX and iOS.

And actually - Forte has 16 GB of new samples total, but they are not just for the two pianos, they also contain new Rhodes, Wurly, Clavinet and harpsichord samples.

Not a Kronos killer. But definitely a Nord Stage 2 killer, especially if the price is right (=lower than way too overpriced NS2).

Barbenzinc · Post by **Barbenzinc** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:15 am

And a little thing about VAST, to make it short.
Kurzweil has always made an honour point to keep the compatibility between products, which is to me amazing !
Actually, a patch programmed on a K2000 can be used on a K2500, K2600, and a PC3. Artis and Forte can read PC3's patches !
You have 23 years sounds legacy.
So of course VAST is in every machine, but i can tell you there is no comparison between VAST in a K2000 / K2500 and the PC3 series....
The name is staying because the point is to have a variable architecture...

raomcz · Post by **raomcz** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:52 pm

When I posted it, I was talking about sound engine, only.

We know that a Workstation is not comparable with a Stage piano... But if I use this new board as a sound module (main keyboard in a live rig) with no Sequencer, no Karma, etc, will it be a new competitor for Kronos?

The pianos sounds are comparable?

Of course, it's clear now from Kurzweil that it's a Stage Piano, so Nord Stage 2, RD800 are the "challengers"!

Let's wait for some complete demos...

A Demo from web: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNbCseM4UK8

JPWC · Post by **JPWC** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:21 pm

I don't think we've got the memory allocations correct.

It 16 GB for all sounds. not just two pianos.

The pianos are list as multi-GB only.

I had a PC-3, it sounds great, plays great and is built like a tank.

But........it does sound like 1969 to about 1979, and I mean the best of. If I was is a rock & roll band, it would be prefect.

NuSkoolTone · Post by **NuSkoolTone** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:07 pm

SanderXpander wrote: The 16GB pianos were often toted by Korg as a game changer so I don't see why there is so little respect when another company follows suit

Because Korg did it 3 years ago! I'm dying to know the details as much as anyone else, but Sharp is on point with this. We know there are various reasons and hurdles Kurz had to over come, but it's been HOW many years and no K3K? How old is KB3 and all the other tech in there? Granted, the Kronos is an Oasys with less bling but functional improvements yest on all but the sequencer is STILL ahead of the pack based on a design from a 2005 release. THAT is saying something! I know I sound like a fanboi, but that's the truth. I am SO disappointed Roland's FA series didn't end up their version of the Kronos. What I wouldn't do for an Integra workstation with a full V-synth expanded XT inside! THAT could compete with Kronos.

I'm hoping the interface isn't just a PC3 in color. I'm hoping the 16GB of samples isn't flash based in a non-streamed sense meaning that in reality it's 16GB vs. the Kronos where with Streaming you can probably already get more than 16GB of samples in a working set. I mean 16GB is certainly great and nothing to sneeze at and Kurzweil has the market cornered in getting bang for buck in quality of samples for memory space used as attested by there previous roms that they've managed to milk for so many years. Giving credit where credit is due, but it's been done. So that's why it's "Great! Finally! Ok it's been done before though, so and??? What else you got?"

Still hopeful for more interesting reveals regarding the Forte. However if nothing else, this puts the pressure on Yamaha to finally do something NEW. Competition is GOOD. So in the end, we will be the winners one way or the other!

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:36 pm

NuSkoolTone wrote:How old is KB3 and all the other tech in there?

As old as PC3. KB3 is different and much better than the one in K2xxx.

NuSkoolTone wrote:I'm hoping the interface isn't just a PC3 in color.

NuSkoolTone wrote:I'm hoping the 16GB of samples isn't flash based in a non-streamed sense meaning that in reality it's 16GB vs. the Kronos where with Streaming you can probably already get more than 16GB of samples in a working set.

Err, they call it FlashPlay, so of course it's flash memory based. This is not DFD streaming.

Jan1 · Post by **Jan1** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:53 pm

With so many new and good sounding stage pianos I wonder if the market for stage pianos isn't saturated by now?
Kurzweil may be able to offer a big FlashROM sample-based piano, but with a price close to 3000 Euros it faces stiff competition from others offering the same type of sounds for a whole lot less, and that with excellent proprietary keybed action...
Nevertheless, I wish Kurzweil lots of success with the Forte.

As far as workstations is concerned the KRONOS still remains unchallenged three years after its release.
And I bet KORG is already working on the next generation.

drama1 · Post by **drama1** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:56 pm

I read it's going to be offered in 61 synth key action, 73 semi-weighted, 76 weighted and 88 weighted. INHO Korg should have done this, but it is what it is.

NuSkoolTone · Post by **NuSkoolTone** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:11 pm

EvilDragon wrote:
NuSkoolTone wrote:How old is KB3 and all the other tech in there?
As old as PC3. KB3 is different and much better than the one in K2xxx.

NuSkoolTone wrote:I'm hoping the interface isn't just a PC3 in color.

NuSkoolTone wrote:I'm hoping the 16GB of samples isn't flash based in a non-streamed sense meaning that in reality it's 16GB vs. the Kronos where with Streaming you can probably already get more than 16GB of samples in a working set.
Err, they call it FlashPlay, so of course it's flash memory based. This is not DFD streaming.

Ok so the interface is now on par with mid 2000's workstations, and the "Flash Play" is essentially a 16GB version of what was done in the Motif XF. RAM/ROM seems to be used interchangeably describing it through various sources, hence the confusion. The only thing I haven't read is whether it's user updateable. Right now it's sounding more like traditional ROM to me.

The only demos I have heard so far are Piano, EP and Clav. I'm assuming that's what's "new". Is that everything? Judging by the Artis Demos the Organ is "better" but still not up to the rest of the Clonewheels including the CX-3 IMO especially after the recent update.

Seems like a capable board, but still playing "Catch up". It's really gonna come down to how they price it me thinks.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:01 pm

Personally I find KB3 in PC3 meatier and overall more natural than CX-3 in Kronos, but that's just my 2 cents, YMMV.

afr · Post by **afr** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:02 pm

New Kurzweil Forte will be a Kronos challenger?

may be in 5 years time, after 5 revision of the same instrument, adding few features every time ..... they will reach 10% of Kronos

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:15 pm

NuSkoolTone wrote:
SanderXpander wrote: The 16GB pianos were often toted by Korg as a game changer so I don't see why there is so little respect when another company follows suit
Because Korg did it 3 years ago! I'm dying to know the details as much as anyone else, but Sharp is on point with this. We know there are various reasons and hurdles Kurz had to over come, but it's been HOW many years and no K3K? How old is KB3 and all the other tech in there? Granted, the Kronos is an Oasys with less bling but functional improvements yest on all but the sequencer is STILL ahead of the pack based on a design from a 2005 release. THAT is saying something! I know I sound like a fanboi, but that's the truth. I am SO disappointed Roland's FA series didn't end up their version of the Kronos. What I wouldn't do for an Integra workstation with a full V-synth expanded XT inside! THAT could compete with Kronos.

I'm hoping the interface isn't just a PC3 in color. I'm hoping the 16GB of samples isn't flash based in a non-streamed sense meaning that in reality it's 16GB vs. the Kronos where with Streaming you can probably already get more than 16GB of samples in a working set. I mean 16GB is certainly great and nothing to sneeze at and Kurzweil has the market cornered in getting bang for buck in quality of samples for memory space used as attested by there previous roms that they've managed to milk for so many years. Giving credit where credit is due, but it's been done. So that's why it's "Great! Finally! Ok it's been done before though, so and??? What else you got?"

Still hopeful for more interesting reveals regarding the Forte. However if nothing else, this puts the pressure on Yamaha to finally do something NEW. Competition is GOOD. So in the end, we will be the winners one way or the other!

I don't care how long ago it was, if multi GB pianos are a strong point of the Kronos they are a strong point of the Forte too. The question was if this can go up against the K, and in that sense it possibly can. I haven't heard it, but it's certainly a nice step up from the couple of hundred MB Yamaha piano.
Just pointing out that for most practical points for me, it seems (on paper) it may compete with the K.

NuSkoolTone · Post by **NuSkoolTone** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:17 am

EvilDragon wrote:Personally I find KB3 in PC3 meatier and overall more natural than CX-3 in Kronos, but that's just my 2 cents, YMMV.

Chordally I can hear that. It's in the single notes where the Kurz really lets me down. If the (very good IMO) leslie's not spinning it gets very "GM" sounding to me. I agree the CX-3 needs a little more coaxing than it should to get "meaty" previously, though I feel the character is closer especially since the update. Have you played one since? There's not really any real demos on it of you tube yet. It's good enough some have held off on getting ventilators now.

SanderXpander wrote: I don't care how long ago it was, if multi GB pianos are a strong point of the Kronos they are a strong point of the Forte too. The question was if this can go up against the K, and in that sense it possibly can. I haven't heard it, but it's certainly a nice step up from the couple of hundred MB Yamaha piano.
Just pointing out that for most practical points for me, it seems (on paper) it may compete with the K.

I see your point though all synthesis methods were "Revolutionary" and "Strong points" at some time. Now? Not quite as much IMO. Remember when the M1 wavetables were a "Breakthrough"? As things become more "Common" they become kind of the norm. At this point would you consider a synth that does analog sounds with a VA impressive technology? I don't know about you but I kind of expect it now. Now if it was say a Solaris sounding VA, sure it would still be "Impressive" and a strong point. Though I don't think that's what we're working with here. So far it just seems they're making a big deal out of what's already been done before and not necessarily in a way that's better. But hey, it's still early! I would LOVE to be surprised.