3 more months

[Dikikeys]

Can't you do basically the same thing with the Chord Sequencer?

All it would take would be Korg allowing you to save the CS (and maybe a simple editor to clean up flubs) and a Link to have the Songbook load it, you would be in business, right?

[fResH_]

I salute you! Tell them the truth!

That's the problem, isn't it? What little market research any of these arranger makers do is focused on their core demographic, which, to put it kindly, really only want to switch the damn thing on and noodle around! The power users, while being the ones that push for innovation, are a small fraction of the sales...

The trouble is, you can add features, you can take them away... if the demographic you actually ARE poling doesn't really care one way or the other (and probably doesn't even know the feature exists, so they don't miss it when it's gone!), how do they stay relevant to the power users?

Let's be honest... few outright amateurs and bedroom noodlers ever spend much time here, and probably make no effort to contact Korg (or any other manufacturer) about anything unless the thing won't power up. So, where do any of the manufacturers go for decent feedback about the product?

To be frank, I have a feeling it's not here (or the other arranger forums) very often! Honestly, when was the last time an arranger manufacturer contacted YOU (they have your name and address and email!) and asked you about YOUR needs? Did any of them, after bringing out a new model, come to their loyal customers and ask 'How are we doing?'.

I honestly believe that few of those designing these wonder-machines actually PLAY them at all, it's pretty obvious when core features get left off they simply don't have a clue about what we use and what we DON'T use, what we want and what we DON'T want. I'll happily put up a week's wages that the vast majority on the design team, if they play anything at all, it's synths and workstations.

That's worked out fairly well for certain areas of the Korg OS... you certainly get a more WS-like ability to create and edit voices, and have a full normal sampler experience than any other arranger, but it sure seems that the core ARRANGER functions often get slapped on or jerked off in a seemingly random progression.

It's time that the power ARRANGER users concentrated their efforts less on voices, and more on arranger features. After all, what's the point in the world's best acoustic piano simulation, if you can't play pianistically on an arranger without the chord recognition freaking out?!

Why do features get dropped? Could it be that you are not fulsome enough in your praise of the little things that turn an average arranger into a GREAT one? Maybe you don't even realize which ones they are... But take a close look at your arranger, at each of the things you like it to do. Now imagine them taking those features away. Which are the little ones that make all the difference, but might slide under the radar..?

Now write a post or two praising them! Write a post or two showing WHY they are so good. Post some music that demos that capability in a way that shows its superiority over other modes.

Maybe THAT will wake up the morons at R&D who obviously don't USE an arranger..!

Would you trust yourself in a car that was designed by someone who didn't drive? That's what it so often appears like when it comes to each new generation of arrangers. I hate to say it, but I think I have to give props to Yamaha, who seem to mostly be able to stay out of the trap of dropping stuff to make room for the new. Most of the time, they seem to have the sensible solution of only adding stuff, without taking anything away.

For starters, this makes for a nice smooth transition going from an older one to the latest, and you rarely see the kind of angst generated by other manufacturer loyalists when a long-treasured (but unsung) feature suddenly, for no apparent reason, disappears after being on for years...

There's a lesson to be learned here, Korg.

DON'T DROP ANYTHING UNLESS SOMETHING BETTER REPLACES IT

And make sure you check here about whether WE think it's better, not those weenies in R&D! It's a little late doing it, THEN asking us whether we want it done. How about asking us FIRST? I guarantee, had you asked all here whether the MOTL arrangers didn't need Fingered3 mode any more, the answer would have saved you a TON of trouble!

[karmathanever]

Can't you do basically the same thing with the Chord Sequencer?

Very sadly, NO - BS was quite different and specifically designed for STYLE+ sequencing. You can achieve a few of its basics with the Chord Sequencer but the BS was so so so much better. - The best analogy I can think of:- it was like having "Band in a Box" on board...

Pete

[karmathanever]

morons at R&D - Korg

....deaf and hearing impaired..... - Roland

So, how are they described at Yamaha.................???

Always great to hear other points of view but hey, seriously, cool down - look after your heart..... I am hopefully wrong but some of these posts sound very "stressful".

Pete

[DonM]

Diki doesn't have stress, but he's a carrier!
I've known him many years and he is usually correct. Maybe not politically correct though! . . .
. . .trying to rile him just a bit. I always learn something when he gets mad.

[karmathanever]

I always learn something when he gets mad.

You're a bad bad man

[Dikikeys]

I find it difficult to describe it any other way, guys! Let's be honest... pretty much every power user here has the same facepalm response to some of the more boneheaded moves by these people. Heck, we pay them enough for their products, is it unreasonable to expect at least a level of awareness about arranger operation that equals your average user?

These guys are supposed to be SMARTER than us! Yet we can spot obvious poor design decisions the second we lay our hands on their creations. How smart does that make THEM?

As I so often say, it's getting harder and harder every new model to not think that the people designing them don't play them! Not the way we do, anyway...

If these people need criticism to be sugar coated before they will get off their duffs and correct these blunders, that puts them firmly in the category of your average ten year old. We hold our sports heroes to higher standards and criticize them FAR more brutally than anything I have laid on an arranger designer! Surely something I've paid (and you've paid!) thousands for should be held to the same standards?

As Forest Gump would say... 'Stupid is as stupid does'

[Dikikeys]

I haven't been laying much on Yamaha here? I must be slipping!

Actually, each new Roland and Korg gives me a better appreciation of Yamaha, if the truth be known! (Yes, you read it! )

Not for their sound, which I still find insipid, or their form factor, where they only JUST came out with a 76, made it the most expensive arranger ever made, and STILL don't think that us poor people in the cheap seats don't deserve a 76 on a MOTL arranger!

Nor for their absolutely half-hearted move into using audio loops for drums, forgetting that only putting them on a small percentage of styles doesn't exactly put a ringing endorsement of the idea, or that most users really would like to put their OWN loops in from time to time...

No, I find myself respecting Yamaha a bit more these days because they seem to be the only arranger manufacturer not shooting themselves in the foot disabling long-used features, or releasing arrangers before pretty much ALL the bugs have been ironed out, or the style and voice design teams have tweaked and balanced the styles to close to perfection.

Yes, they still saddle their MOTL arrangers with an action I wouldn't foist off on a six year old, while they put quite excellent actions on WS's that cost half the price but at least when you PLAY them, they don't sound like a half-deaf heavy metal fan voiced the style! And if you had the LAST arranger they made in the series (or even one from a decade earlier), you don't find yourself hunting for features you ONCE had, or having to learn an entirely new terminology and workflow to do the exact same thing you knew how to do before..!

Am I mellowing a bit?

Naaaaaaahhhhhh!

[DonM]

"Am I mellowing a bit?" Say it ain't so!
Just today I went through almost every rock style I have and either muted or turned way down the distorted guitar tracks in all of them. My audiences would just assume the p.a. was distorting!
I will take a lot of interest in the next MOTL Yamaha, that will replace PSRS950. I don't mind the flimsy action. it's easy on my old fingers, and I was never a piano player anyway.
At least I'll know it has proper chord recognition, except of course for their easy mode that makes no musical sense whatsoever. I don't use one finger chords anyway so that doesn't affect me.
I will most likely keep the PA900 until that happens. This will give Korg a few months to address their goof-up.
I'm rapidly reaching the point where the next arranger I buy, or even the one I have now, will be my last. I won't compromise on the features I need.
Let's face it, they all sound great these days.

[bugzoo]

The PA3x is pretty damn cool and powerful. But I would like to see a graphical, block style, editor for song mode kind of like the main screen in Band In A Box. I would like to see the chords and variations and fills indicated in a grid. The step editor is pretty hard to get your brain into sometimes. Making changes and moving them is tedious.

Also, we should be able to select ANY drum sound in the style- not just the 4 or so that Korg has pre-selected. There are hundreds of snares for example. Why can we not just select any drum sound for the snare? This is such an unnecessary limitation.

[karmathanever]

I find it difficult to describe it any other way, guys! Let's be honest... pretty much every power user here has the same facepalm response to some of the more boneheaded moves by these people. Heck, we pay them enough for their products, is it unreasonable to expect at least a level of awareness about arranger operation that equals your average user?

Today's keyboard technology is such that one should NEVER "expect" everything but rather spend some time researching (basically reading the manuals/specifications) BEFORE committing the money.

If it doesn't suit, don't' buy it but if you buy it and THEN it doesn't suit…. well……. blame the manufacturer only if their specs/advertising were incorrect or misleading - applies to just about everything you buy really….

OK, so we are back to "…well Korg it was there before and now you've removed/changed it….." - it's in their specs and if it is a serious issue which might result in future sales for them then they need to address it - I reckon Korg know about it by now but if they choose not to make changes then the issues and decisions are back in your court.

Back in the days of the PSR6700, Korg i3 etc, Roland E-series, these arrangers were "simple" keyboards. I bought the i3 almost sight unseen having seen Steven Kay's demos BUT even in those days I had very specific requirements and so, I still researched those features first.

TODAY - well look at the complexities with the PA/Tyros/Audya - their OS's are huge and complex - so so many features. If you're a serious player, then serious research is essential IMHO.

I do not side with Korg - your "fingered 3" requirements are real and can be well and justifiably explained - whether Korg will jump and update the OS is another matter - they clearly intended to make the changes - and now, making any change to an OS is huge - it may seem insignificant to the owner but every small change would require extensive testing….

I hope Korg are working on your issues.

Cheers

Pete

[siebenhirter]

Today's keyboard technology is such that one should NEVER "expect" everything but rather spend some time researching (basically reading the manuals/specifications) BEFORE committing the money.

If it doesn't suit, don't' buy it but if you buy it and THEN it doesn't suit…. well……. blame the manufacturer only if their specs/advertising were incorrect or misleading - applies to just about everything you buy really….

OK, so we are back to "…well Korg it was there before and now you've removed/changed it….." - it's in their specs and if it is a serious issue which might result in future sales for them then they need to address it - I reckon Korg know about it by now but if they choose not to make changes then the issues and decisions are back in your court.

Once more and here again: Korg SHOULD TRY TO HOLD THE LEVEL OF FUNCTIONS THAT ALREADY WHERE PRESENT.
For this, one must not seek users as guilty who bought equipment without studying details of specifications.
Maybe some spent no money and did not buy, because they have read the specifications!

With decreasing level Korg's new products are nothing interesting already after reading of the specification (except one do not want to use them as arrangerkeyboards, but as smf- or mp3-player only and at least without advanced style functionality).

[Dikikeys]

I agree with sieben here... you really shouldn't expect an arranger manufacturer to drop features, at LEAST not without considerable research and market awareness first.

Sure, yes, it is ALWAYS 'buyer beware', but remember, karma, a buyer's decision often revolves around a lot more than ONE feature. Yes, I was incensed when Roland dropped the touch screen from the G/E series, and I still think it was the dumbest thing they have ever done (actually, not... the list is long and distinguished! ) but what choice did I have? To change EVERYTHING I do with arrangers, or suck it up and put up with the stupid decision, all the while trying to make as much noise as possible in the vain hope that someone at R&D would realize what a mistake they made...?

I rather doubt it's true, but I like to THINK I had something to do with Roland returning the Chord Sequencer to its OS after more than 15 years absence... I made more noise about it over a longer period than anybody! But truth is, it probably came back in because Korg put it on, and the Roland boys woke up to the fact that they had invented the damn thing, and Korg were the only ones wise enough to use it!

As Don here sort of points out, yes, he's probably going to HAVE to jump ship, but he doesn't WANT to... He likes everything about Korg's (OK, most everything!) except the ONE decision they only JUST made. And he's not alone by any means.

I think you cut Korg altogether too much slack... The solution is not to jump ship, spend years playing something you don't really want to, all the while waiting for these dunderheads to return the ONE tiny thing that made you leave (when it's likely that they simply didn't realize anyone used it... mind you, what does that say about their customer awareness? ), the solution is to make AS MUCH NOISE AS POSSIBLE, for as long as possible, in as many places as possible.

The function that has most incensed about is a simple OS fix. There is absolutely no need for anyone to wait for the next Korg arranger to see if it comes back. At this point, Korg must know the reaction to it. Do they REALLY want to have many of their current users jump ship until they bring out the NEXT Korg PA (and you can bet your sweet ass those jumpers are going to go over the manual with a fine tooth comb before they come back!) and gamble that by then they haven't got used to the new arranger, and like some of its unique features (they all have a few!), or do they have the balls to admit they made a blunder, and fix it before the damage is truly done?

This is Business 101... screw your customers, kiss them goodbye!

[karmathanever]

OK so all previous Korg "vehicles" have had fully functional "cruise-control" - any speed
Now a cheaper model comes out with "cruise control" that only works above certain speeds.

The issue is that if you didn't check the detail before purchase - your problem.
The fact that you are disappointed that the feature was "changed" - your problem.

Your options are quite simple.

I AM NOT ARGUING THAT THE FINGERED 3 CHANGES ARE NOT DISAPPOINTING TO THOSE THAT NEED IT but my "cruise-control" analogy really can apply to any product "model" we buy.

The function that has most incensed about is a simple OS fix.

This is a ridiculous statement unless you are a part of the OS development team. If you have ever developed in depth technical software you would understand that NO OS changes are "simple".
Also, this issue is NOT a bug or fault - it is a wish-list request. Korg have NOT changed anything - just produced a fully specified cut-down more-economical model within the current range.

Now, before you shout at me, I am most definitely NOT siding with Korg - but merely trying to clarify the situation - maybe to also assist those reading these forums who are considering Korg PAa.

This is a disappointing "difference" to those Korg owners who have owned or used previous models and who need this specific function.

Korg may or may not make changes for you - it is up to you to make the NOISE but there is no obligation here….

Good luck with this - I hope by now you (who need this) have sent your requests to Korg

Pete

[siebenhirter]

.. Now a cheaper model comes out with "cruise control" that only works above certain speeds.

The reason to be cheaper is not because it works only above certain speeds. Reasons are the lower costs of production, usage of cheaper and less HW-components.
*

..This is a ridiculous statement unless you are a part of the OS development team. If you have ever developed in depth technical software you would understand that NO OS changes are "simple".

This is a ridiculous statement as CHANGES is something to be designed in an OS, but we are talking about an existing section in sourcecode that simple now is remarked as not to be used. Removing that markers is simple - nothing is to design as new, nothing to research, nothing to develope.
*

.. Also, this issue is NOT a bug or fault ..

It is a bug and a fault - bad thing that if it would be intended
*

.. but merely trying to clarify the situation

Contrary as announced in PRs with Pa900/600/300/Pa3xLe Korg does not perform its glorious tradition with technology and the result is not a combination of unbeatable functionality - OMITTED FEATURES ARE A THROWBACK
*

The issue is that if you didn't check the detail before purchase - your problem. The fact that you are disappointed that the feature was "changed" - your problem. Your options are quite simple.

Continuing strategies of "cruise-control" analogies in the future it will cause problems for Korg, to sell amateur-featured-keyboards as profi-equipped-keyboards - maybe not, if lowering the prices to a level of Medeli-products.
But hope "cruise-control" analogies may not be intended - hope to get updates for last new product-line of Korg to perform its glorious tradition - not to interrupt its functionality.