New sound, need some assistance...

[enigmahack]

I'll give you very quick background:

I made a lead sound, trying to exactly copy Jordan Rudess's lead sound. The post is here:

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... 176#625176

I did what I could with the work in progress, and got this response from Jim.

It still seems to sound slightly more fat and warm through the (low quality) Youtube video, but that`s only a matter of tweaking around with the filter settings and Guitar amp modelling.

Being unsatisfied with anything less than 100% accurate, I went back to the drawing board with the intention of making this new lead sound EXACTLY like the original.

Yes, I started from complete scratch.

I believe I've gotten the main sound and the primary feedback based on these guides:

http://www.keyboardmag.com/create-sound ... ynth/29451
and
http://www.keyboardmag.com/create-sound ... ound/29503

... But there are incredibly important details they're leaving out which I am asking help with.

So these two points that I need help:

1. Jordan uses SW2 to take ONLY the feedback layer and push it an octave higher than everything else. This seems like a pitch thing for the program and not the combi, but I'm not 100% sure yet. I've been playing with using the EQ/Vector/Control page under "Controllers" and assigning SW2 to "Octave Up" but this changes the entire sound and not just the 3 feedback layers. There's no AMS that I can see under the AL-1 application to assign to SW2 to make it octave up... So I'm somewhat stuck. I've been reading through the manual to see if there's something I'm missing but unfortunately it's simply not listed in the book under "Jordan Rudess's sound creation" so I'm at a loss. I'm entirely open to suggestions since I'm a complete rookie at making sounds on the Kronos.

2. Jordan also has feedback doing magnificent things with the ribbon and aftertouch together... it sounds to me like a kind of Ringmod, but after following the instructions to the letter, I'm still left unable to get these odd harmonics out of it all. The first link I'll post below is just your joystick +Y pitches, but then when you press aftertouch it's supposed to add the additional harmonic. (+Y is +1oct and 7ct, -Y is 2 octaves up. Adding aftertouch adds the nasty/dirty feedback sound that I can't get)

https://soundcloud.com/keyboardmag/jsyf ... udess-lead

Go to :12 seconds to hear the additional feedback layers with aftertouch.

https://soundcloud.com/keyboardmag/ribb ... udess-lead

Here, is the ribbon adding RingMod, which adds these weird harmonics. It starts at :04 seconds, but you can immediately hear a minor 3'rd below the main tone come in, and then it starts getting distorted in a different pitch.

I've gotten MOST of the tonalities of the sound and nuances that make up the main lead. Here are my personal examples that should be much closer than my last attempt which was still a "WIP" (Work in progress)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/490 ... Enigma.mp3

This is my inebriated Jordan Rudess interpretation. My apologies for everyone who listens to this. (lol)

This is the PCG if you're interested.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/490 ... Enigma.PCG

So you can tell from the clip that I have the +Y and -Y feedback, but the SW2 doesn't change the octave +12ct for the feedback layers yet. (I'm not 100% on how to do that without changing the main layer)

The other thing is the harmonics in the feedback. I feel as though Jordan was using a non-linear feedback keymap, but then every sample I've heard sounds like it's a legitimate feedback artifact somehow. I'm confused.

My PCG has some controls:

VJS -Y will add some interesting harmonics (as per the links above which describe JR's actual sound)
Knob 8 on RT KNOB/KARMA turned up will make JS-Y a WAH filter, turned off will make JS-Y just the usual feedback sound. (Again, as per the article)

The ribbon adds some nice harmonic stuff, and there are some feedback splits. I won't go into detail, but after G4 things start to repeat harmonically because of the zones. (Again, based on the magazine article)

Would someone who's experienced with sound programming mind helping me "troubleshoot" my sound to figure out what I could possibly be missing? I want to learn this new keyboard (I've only had the Kronos for like 2 weeks now) and would really like some guidance on where I went wrong.

I would hugely appreciate it.

TL;DR
I'm stuck and need help making a sound. Description is in the post though, so sorry if you want to help and can't sit through walls of text.

[HardSync]

Well... I wonder if anyone is ever going to be happy with this sound that isn't an exact copy of Rudess's sound. It's been covered so often on this forum, and then a few more times just to rub it in a bit. Jerry, the guy who wrote the article in Keyboard, even came one of the topics to help out with the FX settings and that wasn't good enough because there were still more questions. People are absolutely obsessed with this sound -- and it had better be spot-on perfect. So I sincerely wish you the best of luck in reproducing it exactly. I'm confident that Rudess would make a pretty penny by selling his signature combi to the general public.

In any case, start here for some tips on using AMS Mixers to gate controllers (maybe this will help -- maybe it won't...):

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... 044#602044

Jerry arrives here for some FX settings: http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... 761#602761

The SW2 octave thing could be program-based (I really don't know). In AL-1 program mode, you'll assign the switch on the Pitch/EG Mod screen. When you're back in combi mode, you will filter out SW2 for the other programs, ensuring only the program you want to rise one octave is affected. Otherwise, the only pitch controller mods you can do within a combi itself is along the X axes, which you can do on a per-timbre basis.

[kronosuser3407]

I've tried to get his lead sound too, Jerry gave me some of the effects settings and EQ settings on the forum link HardSync put on his post.

[enigmahack]

Well... I wonder if anyone is ever going to be happy with this sound that isn't an exact copy of Rudess's sound. It's been covered so often on this forum, and then a few more times just to rub it in a bit.

Thanks for the links and information - I'm definitely going to be adding that into what I've got already.

For me, I'm just learning to program the Kronos. I've been developing sounds on Kurzweil for so long that it's intuitive to make sounds but now with the Kronos (new engines, new layout) there's a lot to learn. The basics are still there and can be applied but it's the challenge of learning a new synth.

Honestly, I'm not even a fan of his lead sound. I'm a fan of his lead from back in the SFAM/LTE days (again, back on his Kurzweil)

Anyway, I want to get it to sound exactly the same for a few reasons, one of them you mentioned. There are LOTS of leads on the forum but none of them get it right. I want to be that one that gets it right so others don't need to, or so if they want to do what I'm doing, I can eventually help and point them in the right direction as Jerry has been doing to help when others were working on it.

The bigger goal for me though is "How does the Kronos do this, so if I want to do the same thing later, I would be able to"

At the end of the day, it's just a lead sound that is a copycat of Jordan's sound. I'm not in a Dream Theater cover band and have no need for it, but it's the pleasure of dissecting the sound, and the accomplishment of being able to say I accurately recreated it. I'm more obsessed with THAT than I am with the actual sound itself. (Though there are some neat things going on with it)

Besides, if I can help someone else who IS in a Dream Theater cover band or something, then that's cool too.

[Bertotti]

Enigmahack do you do all of this by ear? I am curi.ous because for a guy just starting out you have blown way past me! Not to hard to do Kronos is my first synth of any kind.

Sorry to side track you good luck!

[jeremykeys]

I could be totally wrong but as far as I know, Jordan slightly modifies his lead sound almost for every song.

[enigmahack]

I could be totally wrong but as far as I know, Jordan slightly modifies his lead sound almost for every song.

Yes and no. Not every song requires a modification. Sometimes he'll add percussive attack or whatnot, but generally when you look at his "generic JR Kronos lead" it's the one you hear in the examples listed above.

Enigmahack do you do all of this by ear? I am curi.ous because for a guy just starting out you have blown way past me! Not to hard to do Kronos is my first synth of any kind.

Sorry to side track you good luck!

Thanks for the compliment. I do this all by ear yes, though the Jordan Rudess lead had a lot of help from Jerry who wrote the article, so there is that too.

That said, I've been programming for 15 years on Kurzweil, so the basics are exactly the same, it's just the details that are different that I'm getting used to. Effects are effects, regardless of guitar/keyboard/studio mixing, etc.

[jimknopf]

The amount of perfectionalism you put into this is breathtaking, and had I known what a small remark could provoke, maybe I would have kept silent not to bother you too much. On the other hand, it is probably useful for getting into the Kronos.

My own subtracitve synthesis programming skills are just good enough for tweaking sounds for my purposes, and doing most of the elementary stuff from scratch as well, but not much more.

Some rather simple sounds, like Jan Hammer's harder Moog lead sounds, are relatively easy to program, but then depend so much
a) on the typical synth filter sound hard to copy with another synth (well at least for me)
B) on types of overdrive and amplification which are hard to match, even with a beast like the Kronos, due to it's overdrive modelling weakness.

Concerning the Rudess sound, my impression in DT youtube videos was, that it sounds agressive, but slightly less harsh than yours. But that was a completely spontanpus and subjective impression. I listen with Neumann KH 120s since some days, so if I'm wrong, it's definitely my perception and not the monitor speakers.

[enigmahack]

I listen with Neumann KH 120s since some days, so if I'm wrong, it's definitely my perception and not the monitor speakers.

Thanks Jim,

I definitely appreciate any feedback honestly. At this point, the way I see it... I've seen others put a lot of time and effort into the sound and not get it. I'm trying my 100% to do my best so... I've been scouring the forums to see what else others have done and if I can get it to the point that there is no mistaking... Then I know I've "done it" and it should be good enough for anyone to use in the future who asks for it.

As mentioned already, invariably someone every few months asks for either the "JR Lead" or the "Snarling Pig" lead. I've finished the snarling pig lead I would say accurate enough to keep 99% of the population who wants it happy. JR's lead however is a whole other monster and I will not rest until I get it so close that JR himself would be asking "Where do you get my lead from Enigma?"

Anyway, I digress.

I've been taking all feedback, re-listening with multiple mediums and attempting to get the primary tone the same. I think I have it. I have the main feedback layers but then it's the added sync/FM oscillation that's giving me a hard time.

I'll post more when I have more that seems to be closer, but for the time being I keep twisting knobs and poking away at the screen until I discover magic.

[jimknopf]

Hi enigmahack, just to avoid any misunderstanding:
I was referring to your first effort in my last post, not the last.

Meanwhile I have checked your new one and think it's just great!!
I was already impressed by your first effort, but even more by this last!

[jeremykeys]

I could be totally wrong but as far as I know, Jordan slightly modifies his lead sound almost for every song.

Yes and no. Not every song requires a modification. Sometimes he'll add percussive attack or whatnot, but generally when you look at his "generic JR Kronos lead" it's the one you hear in the examples listed above.

I have all the Dream Theater cd's and though I have never really given any thought to the differences of J.R.s lead sounds over the time that he has been with them;I also have all the LTE's cd's, even the one with out J.R.; I have to ask, do you think his lead sound has changed? I only ask this because I programmed a lead sound using Jerry's article as a guideline and my sound is quite different from J.R.s lead sound. Mind you , I also tried to combine the idea with Derek Sherinanian's Monster Lead which is a variation form an old Triton lead sound.
I don't get to use lead sounds a lot except in various jams that I sometimes go to. Certainly not in my country/rock band.

I've been playing and programming sounds since the early 70's and have pretty much never nailed somebody elses sound but that is because I've always ended up tweaking a control and going, "Wow! Is that ever cool!".
The next thing I know is that I've gone in totallyanother direction, forgotten just what I was trying to do and rocked out!
Oh well. Ka ka occures!
If the girls are throwing their underwear at you, you're doing alright!

[AntonySharmman]

Would someone who's experienced with sound programming mind helping me "troubleshoot" my sound to figure out what I could possibly be missing? I want to learn this new keyboard (I've only had the Kronos for like 2 weeks now) and would really like some guidance on where I went wrong.
I would hugely appreciate it.

Download a similar lead of mine I've modified for you , with basics you need in just a single AL 1 Program !
http://www.mediafire.com/download/z3ey7 ... M_Lead.PCG

Hope this helps

[enigmahack]

I have all the Dream Theater cd's and though I have never really given any thought to the differences of J.R.s lead sounds over the time that he has been with them;I also have all the LTE's cd's, even the one with out J.R.; I have to ask, do you think his lead sound has changed? I only ask this because I programmed a lead sound using Jerry's article as a guideline and my sound is quite different from J.R.s lead sound. Mind you , I also tried to combine the idea with Derek Sherinanian's Monster Lead which is a variation form an old Triton lead sound.

Side note, there's no Liquid Tension Experiment album without JR - he was in both 1 and 2, unless you mean the Dream Theater CD's without Jordan (Awake, Falling into Infinity, etc.)

Anyway, if you listen to SFAM, the lead sound there is programmed on a Kurzweil 2600 with all of the ROMs. Then if you listen to Octavarium, he started using a lot of Roland gear, especially the V-Synth. Afterwards he moved onto the Oasys and finally the Kronos. Each of those had a distinctive lead sound, which you can hear throughout the progression of the albums. When they toured in 2004/5 though, he had the Oasys on the road with a V-synth powering the Continuum. I'm not sure if he still uses the V-synth for that or not, or if he just remade the lead in his Kronos.

Would someone who's experienced with sound programming mind helping me "troubleshoot" my sound to figure out what I could possibly be missing? I want to learn this new keyboard (I've only had the Kronos for like 2 weeks now) and would really like some guidance on where I went wrong.
I would hugely appreciate it.

Download a similar lead of mine I've modified for you , with basics you need in just a single AL 1 Program !
http://www.mediafire.com/download/z3ey7 ... M_Lead.PCG

Hope this helps

Downloaded and saved for when I get home later today. Thanks so much for your help! I'll take a look and see how to you did what I'm asking and see if I can apply it.

[jeremykeys]

Oops! That was my mistake. The third LTE cd was called Liquid Trio Experiment. John Petruuci wasn't there. Not J.R. This is a cd made from Mike
Portnoy's Dat recordings that he always does when making a new album.

[enigmahack]

Download a similar lead of mine I've modified for you , with basics you need in just a single AL 1 Program !
http://www.mediafire.com/download/z3ey7 ... M_Lead.PCG

Hope this helps

Thanks Antony for your help.

When I checked out what you were doing, you did exactly what I did; Under the Controllers page (under Common) you set SW2 to change the octave. This works for the individual layer, but when I put it into a combi, the SW2 does nothing at all.

I get the impression that I somehow need to trigger the feedback layers on a different midi channel so they don't affect the primary layer. That said, I don't know how to go about doing that. I read it might have something to do with Karma, but I'm not entirely sure how to go about that.

Thanks for trying though, and nice smooth lead sound you have. I like it.