Could someone give a review on Berlin Grand?

benny ray · Post by **benny ray** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:04 pm

I am wondering if some people that have the Berlin Piano could compare it to the German Grand as well as other comparisons of other pianos. Not talking about videos but people that actually have played the Berlin Piano. Thanks so much and looking for some great and helpful info! i

gboser · Post by **gboser** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:15 pm

My guess is you will be waiting a long time for a comparison review. Based on the download mess that has occurred, I think the only people playing the Berlin are people who have a new Kronos.

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:39 pm

In another thread I already described my first impression:

The Berlin Grand: I just love it!
It became clear to me within ten minutes, that this will be my definite go-to grand piano for ~80-% of the piano sounds which I use in the Kronos, from now on.

I will leave it to others to post side by side comparisons. I can just decribe what I hear after half an hour of playing around with the piano patches:
- sonically the Berlin/Bechstein is in between the Kronos German Grand and the Boesendorfer
- it sounds extremely flexible with different settings (bright, dark, layered, compressed etc.), sounding good with all variations
- you can play it more expressive than any other IMHO
- it cuts through the mix in a very elegant way (not as hard as the rocking Boesendorfer, but very clear cut and defined).
- it simply seems to shine in any band context, from trio jazz to crowded band instrument contexts: you just hear it, without being obtrusive.

For someone who plays only classic or ballad stuff solo piano, the softer German Grand may still be an equivalent or even better option, but from my view really only for that purpose. Everywhere else the Berlin rules IMHO. I should add that these first impressions are from home studio use, not with loud band speakers. I will have to check loud band level next week.

danmusician · Post by **danmusician** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:02 pm

jimknopf wrote:In another thread I already described my first impression:

The Berlin Grand: I just love it!
It became clear to me within ten minutes, that this will be my definite go-to grand piano for ~80-% of the piano sounds which I use in the Kronos, from now on.

I will leave it to others to post side by side comparisons. I can just decribe what I hear after half an hour of playing around with the piano patches:
- sonically the Berlin/Bechstein is in between the Kronos German Grand and the Boesendorfer
- it sounds extremely flexible with different settings (bright, dark, layered, compressed etc.), sounding good with all variations
- you can play it more expressive than any other IMHO
- it cuts through the mix in a very elegant way (not as hard as the rocking Boesendorfer, but very clear cut and defined).
- it simply seems to shine in any band context, from trio jazz to crowded band instrument contexts: you just hear it, without being obtrusive.

For someone who plays only classic or ballad stuff solo piano, the softer German Grand may still be an equivalent or even better option, but from my view really only for that purpose. Everywhere else the Berlin rules IMHO. I should add that these first impressions are from home studio use, not with loud band speakers. I will have to check loud band level next week.

Excellent observations. Thanks! For me, the Austrian is overly bright and in your face. Seems like the Berlin maybe more to my liking. I tend to play more ballad stuff, but am looking forward trying the Berlin when I can finally download it.

phattbuzz · Post by **phattbuzz** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:22 pm

jimknopf wrote:In another thread I already described my first impression:

The Berlin Grand: I just love it!
It became clear to me within ten minutes, that this will be my definite go-to grand piano for ~80-% of the piano sounds which I use in the Kronos, from now on.

I will leave it to others to post side by side comparisons. I can just decribe what I hear after half an hour of playing around with the piano patches:
- sonically the Berlin/Bechstein is in between the Kronos German Grand and the Boesendorfer
- it sounds extremely flexible with different settings (bright, dark, layered, compressed etc.), sounding good with all variations
- you can play it more expressive than any other IMHO
- it cuts through the mix in a very elegant way (not as hard as the rocking Boesendorfer, but very clear cut and defined).
- it simply seems to shine in any band context, from trio jazz to crowded band instrument contexts: you just hear it, without being obtrusive.

For someone who plays only classic or ballad stuff solo piano, the softer German Grand may still be an equivalent or even better option, but from my view really only for that purpose. Everywhere else the Berlin rules IMHO. I should add that these first impressions are from home studio use, not with loud band speakers. I will have to check loud band level next week.

Thanks for the review Jim.
My piano needs are pretty basic, I won't be using it for solo stuff at all. I need a piano that's going to cut through the mix in a band situation. I think I'm going to have to wait until someone posts some music with that piano in that context to see if it will work better than what I already have. Hopefully it happens before the price goes up.

pwuk · Post by **pwuk** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:03 pm

currently not very responsive on Kronos & kronos X

NuSkoolTone · Post by **NuSkoolTone** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:17 pm

I installed it and played it awhile. I'm sorta torn. I really like the attack and the brightness is nice but not too much. However the bottom end is a little...light. The German grand has this nice authoritative low end that the Berlin just doesn't have and can sound a tad thin by comparison. I mean it's adequate, but not as satisfying to my ears. That said I like both much better than the Mid heavy (IMO) Yamaha Grand. That said in a live Band mix, it'd probably be great. The detail is exquisite and the more I play it the more I'm considering it.

Keep in mind this is listening through headphones, in this particular audition Sony 7506's which are a tad bright and light on low end as well.

I may still purchase it, but if it had a better low end it'd be perfect. Maybe I can fiddle with EQ? To be Continued! The Ram usage is not to be ignored either, at 273MB it's pretty "expensive". However I could see removing my Yamaha for this as I rarely use it anyway which would reduce that burden

The other part is the "extra" EXs included. With exception of about 3 string sounds that are nice, I was pretty underwhelmed. The Funk Brass given are some of the least interesting of the Library (Which I already own) with one exception. Sounds like that's kinda true with the Choir as well. I already have choir sounds that exceed and are far more useful than what's given. In other words: They didn't give us any of the "Good stuff" really. The fact that you HAVE to purchase it to get the "Sound Pack" is kinda grating on me personally. Especially now that I've demoed the libraries. It's a handful of sounds specific to those libraries at best. Most of them won't make the cut for my precious program space anyway!

So basically IMO, it doesn't suck but it doesn't scream "Buy me now". The only motivator is that it's an "introductory price which should have been $50 cheaper to begin with.

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:35 pm

The Berlin is very present down to the low notes: there's nothing missing IMHO. But of course it offers no warm low mid rich booming bass there, as a solo piano like the German grand does.

Bigger bass accent and cutting through an average band mix hardly works well together: that makes a piano sound as muddy as the German Grand facory patches really are in band context: none of these factory patches is well useable in band context, and you always need some skilful tweaking to get it useable there. Not with the Berlin.

My impression, that the Berlin is fantastic in context, and plays in the upper league of the best workstation and stage pianos for that purpose, has rather grown after two days of use.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:40 pm

I honestly don't have any issues with the German Grand either. I keep it with the lid open and a touch of 5/6K in EQ I think. Maybe it's cause I play with in-ears? Drummer cymbals always suck a lot of high out of the other sounds on stage and the in-ears do a good job of taming them.

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:50 pm

We had lots of discussions in German forums about this: most keyboarders there, including me, had quite some trouble with the German grand factory patches in band context. I also heard of problems to get it cutting through in recorded mixes. Not in a jazz trio mix with a lot of room, but in anything harder, louder and more crowded.

And those playing a Nord or Kurzweil, who compared, even mocked that their much smaller sized and less detailed grand pianos did a much better job when playing with their bands. It always made sense to me, what they were talking about. I do like the warm tone and detail of the German grand, but I don't like to use it much apart from solo play and small arrangements. Thats why I bought the Boesendorfer a while ago, to have a hard attack piano as well. But that one is limited to really heavy and rocky context with it's hard attack. The Berlin just gets it right for 80 % of what I like to play.

But as always: to each his own!

GregC · Post by **GregC** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:54 pm

jimknopf wrote:We had lots of discussions in German forums about this: most keyboarders there, including me, had quite some trouble with the German grand factory patches in band context. I also heard of problems to get it cutting through in recorded mixes.

And those playing a Nord or Kurzweil, who compared, even mocked that their much smaller sized and less detailed grand pianos did a much better job when playing with their bands. It always made sense to me, what they were talking about.

I still like that punchy compressed sound of the Jv880 AP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohNsq5vtQBI

NuSkoolTone · Post by **NuSkoolTone** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:57 pm

jimknopf wrote:We had lots of discussions in German forums about this: most keyboarders there, including me, had quite some trouble with the German grand factory patches in band context. I also heard of problems to get it cutting through in recorded mixes. Not in a jazz trio mix with a lot of room, but in anything harder, louder and more crowded.

And those playing a Nord or Kurzweil, who compared, even mocked that their much smaller sized and less detailed grand pianos did a much better job when playing with their bands. It always made sense to me, what they were talking about.

In theory I agree with your points, it makes perfect sense. Oddly for me, the one sound my band leader always claims is "too loud" at sound check is the German Piano. I have to make it "uncut" the mix at sound check (Yeah I have to be "That guy" like everyone else. Sound check volume vs. REAL volume" LOL) so I can get a realistic volume with it. Personally I think they notice it more because Piano is percussive hence thinking it's "Loud" so take that with a grain of salt.

genehart · Post by **genehart** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:01 pm

Just played the new Berlin grand demo , I must say that it sounds even more realistic than all previous SGX . I believe this is because of better (much proper) mic positioning.....everything is just perfect !!!
I wish that KORG re-recorded all the previous SGX pianos using this new mic positioning settings .

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:06 pm

Nuskooltone, i did similar things with volume to get the German heard.

But then everybody complained that it was too loud here as well. The reason is simply that it doesn't cut through well enough at levels really fitting into band play. I will be curious to hear that with the Berlin. Here at home through nearfields, it's much better in most contexts I have tested than the German.

BSV73 · Post by **BSV73** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:23 pm

I was actually pretty lucky with the new Berlin grand.. I was checking my email just when that email from korg came through. So strait away I went to the korg site and downloaded the demo. It only took about 2hrs, I guess because I got in early.
My review on the Berlin grand: awesome! It has that detail and presence that the German and Japanese grands don't have. I found through headphones it didn't sound that much better that the other grands but in mono through my Qsc K8 with a little tweaking sounded great. It will be perfect for what I normally play live which is acoustic jazz stuff. But am I going to purchase it? Not right now, as I really don't like the fact that I can't transfer the license to another kronos.