Korg is making the upgrade from K to K2 impossible

jeebustrain · Post by **jeebustrain** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:45 pm

Ottawa58 wrote: Myself? If all comes down to cost. I will buy a $50 throw away, but not a $300 throw away.

I agree with this - the cost is the main driver around my frustration with the inability to transfer - I can deal with losing $50 over it, but not $300 (or more).

McHale · Post by **McHale** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:50 pm

I agree with the above. If they were transferable between workstations (but not other people), I find the prices of the Korg sample libraries very reasonable. Not being transferable, they are WAY too expensive.

-Mc

Codd12 · Post by **Codd12** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:26 pm

I've decided not to buy anymore libraries for the Kronos. I'll just invest in VSTs instead.

Bald Eagle · Post by **Bald Eagle** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:01 am

A more flexible use policy is in order. It's should be per user and not device. All Kronos registered to a single user should be authorized. Who is going to register their Kronos under another Kronos owner just to get a free library? sure, a few might, but is preventing a few pirated copies going to offset the lost sales due to the current policy?

McHale · Post by **McHale** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:14 am

Bald Eagle wrote:A more flexible use policy is in order. It's should be per user and not device. All Kronos registered to a single user should be authorized. Who is going to register their Kronos under another Kronos owner just to get a free library? sure, a few might, but is preventing a few pirated copies going to offset the lost sales due to the current policy?

I think a good first step is to allow the original purchaser to transfer the license FROM the original device TO a new device AT A MINIMUM. As long as it's registered once and to the original consumer, there should be zero issues. This shouldn't be up for debate. This is my major sticking point with their policy.

-Mc

jeremykeys · Post by **jeremykeys** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:30 am

I don't know that many people personally with kronoses. Kroni? Hmmm. We might need a new word here!

But I can garenty that if I had bought a korg sound band I wouldn't give a copy away or even sell it for any price. I also don't think many here would either.
So the ball bounces back to korg. If I buy some sounds and my kronos suffers some irreparable damage, will they let me have MY sounds for my new replacement kronos? Fro free? It should be. I bought it.

Rich Z · Post by **Rich Z** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:59 am

OK, a lot of these concepts are new to me because I am new to Kronos. So please excuse what might be stupid questions.

Are ALL libraries people have developed for the Kronos protected in this manner, or only ones bought directly from Korg?

What is so special about these libraries that some enterprising individuals could not create the same, or very similar, libraries and just GIVE them away or even request a small donation? Heck, I see people on this site offering to create sounds for people upon request. So it doesn't sound like it is impossible to duplicate just about anything you want to.

When a program or combi in a library is purchased, are they blocked in any way from the purchaser being able to thoroughly inspect the methods by which they have been created while loaded into the Kronos?

Are those programs and combis trademarked, patented, or otherwise legally considered protected intellectual property in any way?

Personally, I will NOT purchase any such libraries that do not belong to ME afterwards, as the legitimate purchaser, and not belong to my Kronos keyboard. I bought the libraries, not IT.

I have owned personal computers at home since around 1978. Went though more upgrades, replaced hard drives, and new computers than I can shake a stick at, and in every instance it was possible to do, I transferred software I had purchased to the new hardware. I keep a folder of all the serial numbers, and have multiple backed up copies of the actual install software itself just for this purpose. On occasion I have lost install programs and/or the serial numbers (especially with incremental upgrades over YEARS) and by merely contacting the developer (if they are still in business) they were able to find my account in their system to verify that I am a legitimate purchaser, and with no muss of fuss would give me what I needed to continue to use the legally purchased merchandise.

So what's the big deal here? Korg requests that you register your keyboards with them, so they have that info on file. If you buy libraries from them, certainly they have the capability of retaining that info as well. If you have a crash or buy a new generation keyboard from them compatible with that library, what the heck is the big deal with being allowed to continue to use the libraries you paid for? Just how many keyboard is it likely that a single person is going to buy in the time before the entire genre becomes obsolete anyway? That's nickle and dime stuff to be so restrictive with this "one time install, and too bad for you" policy. If I bought 10 Kronos keyboards (all duly registered) and wanted to use a $150 library on all of them (for some reason), Korg STILL sold 10 keyboard to me. Doesn't that count for something? Won't that be real incentive to register your hardware with them? They offer an extra year of warranty for registering, so obviously it is important to them. So sweeten the pot a bit with this licensing nonsense.

Speaking of which, when those libraries are created, how is the price determined? Is it whatever they think the market will bear, or is the cost of development amortized over the projected number of sales? If it is the latter, when the profit margin point is reached, what happens? Does the price get reduced or has greed taken root?

How many Kronos keyboards are actually being sold? Would it be more profitable selling to only 10 percent of the owners at a high price or selling to nearly ALL of the owners at a cheaper price? With downloadable software, once the break-even point is reached, it's really all just automated gravy from then on. Seriously, if all the libraries were only $20 each, who WOULDN'T buy them all?

IMHO, of course.

branman · Post by **branman** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:12 am

Here's what I'm wondering: Where does the authorization live? If your motherboard goes down and needs replacing, does that nuke your authorization? If it lives on your root drive, and that fails, and you replace it, can you just enter your code and it's okay?

enigmahack · Post by **enigmahack** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:29 am

I'll do my best to answer to my understanding. *Anyone who knows better, please correct me if incorrect.*

Rich Z wrote: Are ALL libraries people have developed for the Kronos protected in this manner, or only ones bought directly from Korg?

Nope. Some *Space4Keys, Progsounds, and others come to mind* aren't.

Rich Z wrote: What is so special about these libraries that some enterprising individuals could not create the same, or very similar, libraries and just GIVE them away or even request a small donation? Heck, I see people on this site offering to create sounds for people upon request. So it doesn't sound like it is impossible to duplicate just about anything you want to.

I'm one that is trying to contribute. The sounds I make aren't totally accurate. I only have some much time, and the sounds I make will vary in accuracy depending on how much time I have. The longer I spend on a sound, eventually it'll become more accurate.

All that to say, I'm *LEARNING* how to use this synth and by requesting sounds, it's giving me a huge palate of sounds to replicate so I'm not making the same 3 sounds over and over. That's why I started the thread asking people to request sounds of me.

The people who make professional libraries, in my opinion (And others may disagree) are in a whole different class of ability than I am. They do things with sounds that I haven't quite reached yet. It doesn't mean that I couldn't, it just means they have knowledge and experience that I don't and while I get close, they may look at my sounds and think "That's pretty good, but you can tell he's still an amateur"

On the flip side, I've also seen some libraries and thought "I can do WAY better than that" so there's no static measure on this one.

Rich Z wrote: When a program or combi in a library is purchased, are they blocked in any way from the purchaser being able to thoroughly inspect the methods by which they have been created while loaded into the Kronos?

Nope. You have complete access to them. In theory, anyone with a Kronos 2 could share samples with Kronos 1 users. It would be laborious and difficult, but could be done. Not all sounds are synthesis, some are samples and that's where the copyright stuff comes in too. I mean, some sounds are just building using the VA1, but some aren't and require special samples.

It's tough to say - I'm not a lawyer, but I would imagine that there's a certain amount of copyright involved in sound creation in that if there's a specific percent of perimeters copied, then it might be considered plagiarism. I don't think so though to be honest. How do you copyright something like that where someone else could literally actually stumble upon those settings entirely by accident.

Rich Z wrote: Personally, I will NOT purchase any such libraries that do not belong to ME afterwards, as the legitimate purchaser, and not belong to my Kronos keyboard. I bought the libraries, not IT.

I have owned personal computers at home since around 1978. Went though more upgrades, replaced hard drives, and new computers than I can shake a stick at, and in every instance it was possible to do, I transferred software I had purchased to the new hardware. I keep a folder of all the serial numbers, and have multiple backed up copies of the actual install software itself just for this purpose. On occasion I have lost install programs and/or the serial numbers (especially with incremental upgrades over YEARS) and by merely contacting the developer (if they are still in business) they were able to find my account in their system to verify that I am a legitimate purchaser, and with no muss of fuss would give me what I needed to continue to use the legally purchased merchandise.

I have no argument. I do the same thing. I agree with you.

Rich Z wrote: So what's the big deal here? Korg requests that you register your keyboards with them, so they have that info on file. If you buy libraries from them, certainly they have the capability of retaining that info as well. If you have a crash or buy a new generation keyboard from them compatible with that library, what the heck is the big deal with being allowed to continue to use the libraries you paid for? Just how many keyboard is it likely that a single person is going to buy in the time before the entire genre becomes obsolete anyway? That's nickle and dime stuff to be so restrictive with this "one time install, and too bad for you" policy. If I bought 10 Kronos keyboards (all duly registered) and wanted to use a $150 library on all of them (for some reason), Korg STILL sold 10 keyboard to me. Doesn't that count for something? Won't that be real incentive to register your hardware with them? They offer an extra year of warranty for registering, so obviously it is important to them. So sweeten the pot a bit with this licensing nonsense.

The only thing I can say in Korg's defence here (which I don't necessarily agree with) is that Korg didn't make the sounds. The vendors did. (KAPro, etc.)

Personally I think with the existing system they have, what I think should happen is you have your account, and when you buy a Kronos you can put in the serial number. The only time there's a conflict is when you bought a used one and the first person registered it. In that case, when you put in the same serial number as someone else, it'll ask for the public ID. Once you put that in, the Kronos is registered with you and now you have access to the "key generator" for your public ID of whatever Kronos you own.

I personally own two and I'm not even a full-time gigging musician. I have purposely gone out of my way to *NOT* buy any of the expansions. I'll snag up the free ones where I can, but the paid ones I'm avoiding because I know if I pay for one, it'll be stuck to a specific board. Which is why we're having this discussion in the first place. Right?

Rich Z wrote: Speaking of which, when those libraries are created, how is the price determined? Is it whatever they think the market will bear, or is the cost of development amortized over the projected number of sales? If it is the latter, when the profit margin point is reached, what happens? Does the price get reduced or has greed taken root?

I believe it's entirely up to the vendor. If I am a certified vendor of Korg, while they advertise and offer my stuff under my name, I'm pretty sure they take a percentage and it's up to me to decide what price I'm asking.

Rich Z wrote: How many Kronos keyboards are actually being sold? Would it be more profitable selling to only 10 percent of the owners at a high price or selling to nearly ALL of the owners at a cheaper price? With downloadable software, once the break-even point is reached, it's really all just automated gravy from then on. Seriously, if all the libraries were only $20 each, who WOULDN'T buy them all?

IMHO, of course.

If the supported libraries were $20 each, I still wouldn't buy them all because I'd sooner run out of space.

On my Kronos 1, it wasn't a problem. My Kronos 2 however, I'm actually running out of user banks when it comes to sounds. I could seriously use an entire 20-30 more whole banks of sounds to load everything I have. If I did however have all of those banks available... *Like User AAA, BBB, CCC - ZZZ* AND the sound banks were all $20, I would be poor but have lots of sounds.

Just my 2c on the matter.

enigmahack · Post by **enigmahack** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:36 am

branman wrote:Here's what I'm wondering: Where does the authorization live? If your motherboard goes down and needs replacing, does that nuke your authorization? If it lives on your root drive, and that fails, and you replace it, can you just enter your code and it's okay?

I think it lives on the SSD. Now, I'm a computer expert but *NOT* a Kronos expert.

What I've seen is the Public ID seems to be the MAC address of the NIC. (It's a special ID that is unique to the Network Interface Card of the Motherboard in the Kronos. The Kronos is running Linux and the easiest way to pull something entirely unique is by pulling the information surrounding the NIC, since every one has a unique ID.)

If you change Hard Drives, the Public ID stays the same. If your Kronos is damaged, you can replace EVERYTHING except the motherboard and you're fine. If your motherboard dies however and you need a replacement, the Public ID changes *because the NIC is soldered onto the motherboard* and the code that once applied to your Kronos is now irrelevant.

McHale · Post by **McHale** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:34 pm

enigmahack wrote:If you change Hard Drives, the Public ID stays the same. If your Kronos is damaged, you can replace EVERYTHING except the motherboard and you're fine. If your motherboard dies however and you need a replacement, the Public ID changes *because the NIC is soldered onto the motherboard* and the code that once applied to your Kronos is now irrelevant.

If that's the case, I'll NEVER buy a library that depends on the Public ID for authorization and I would recommend that NOBODY buys them. I'm on my 2nd motherboard with a 3rd in a box. Mine failed due to unknown reason while sitting unplugged from the wall.

-Mc

GregC · Post by **GregC** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:04 pm

If someone's Kronos goes on the fritz and the owner takes it in to an authorized service center ( yeah, I know, 100 mile drive) there is a fair chance the service center can arrange to replace the original purchased sample libs .

I have no actual experience but I think this is a reasonable request in the event of a Kronos failure where the owner has proof of purchase.

Bertotti · Post by **Bertotti** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:53 pm

I wouldn't worry about a failed mother board as long as it is replaced by a Korg factory service center you are covered. I had emailed and asked about this because I wanted some libraries and was told in a failure situation and going through the Korg authorized service center it would be worked out but all other scenarios, buying a new board buying a second board requires a new purchase of the libraries. it was intimated that there ay be a way to receive a discount but not said out right. i assume this reason for the restriction is there is no way to guarantee the libraries where removed in case of a sale of the board. Either way i won't buy one ties up in such a way. Like I mentioned thought I did buy Qui's and StephenKay's stuff. I think but have not been told they would work with you and even if they didn't they have been such a help to me I have gotten more then my moneys worth and won't mind if I have to buy them again, that said I did buy karma on sale so i am a bit tight with my money.

Bertotti · Post by **Bertotti** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:54 pm

How hard would it be to have a set up like NI for Maschine?

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:22 pm

How do you mean? With a service center and five activations?

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