Yamaha New Synth with Alien Technology

[Bachus]

Some of my friends are at Yamaha but with very few exceptions, every Yamaha keyboard has had a major flaw. I love the company, but I don't believe that some new killer tech is coming around.

I doubt they will go back to VL - even though I have literally begged them to make a new breath controller and to revitalize the VL. The sad fact is that a ROMpler is more than enough for a large percentage of people and a while ago they realized that "good" sounds outweigh any type of power synthesis.

Did you know that VL technollogy is still in use by Yamaha.. the Super articulation 2 voices (only the 2) in Tyros 3,4 and 5 and the latest CVP piano´s are based on a combination of VL technollogy and sampling...

What they have removed however, is the freedom of creating your own sounds using this technollogy.. There are 44 SA2 voices in tyros 5 with only minor edditing options.. thats about it.

So if they add an edditing tool in Montage, these instruments could be flexible in creating new sounds as a base for the new AWm engine..


And for those people that think AWM is still the same as 15 years ago, thats a huge mistake, yamaha has continously been upgrading their engine with new options and stuff, they just never changed the name of it.. (okay only once, they named it AWM2 for some time, but these days they are referring to it as AWM)

[Kevin Nolan]

Bachus, it's my understanding that SA2 uses AEM (Articulation element Modelling) technology - which is a sophisticated sampling based technology only, not containing Virtual Acoustic modelling. Happy to stand corrected on this, but that's what I've read over time.

[Bachus]

Bachus, it's my understanding that SA2 uses AEM (Articulation element Modelling) technology - which is a sophisticated sampling based technology only, not containing Virtual Acoustic modelling. Happy to stand corrected on this, but that's what I've read over time.

AeM is a form of moddeling on top of samples.. Moddeling in this case is nothing else but changing the sample based changing the samples based on the charasteristics of the instrument... Not just changing betweem samples, or crossfading from one to another sample, but also more advanced things that come from Yamaha's VL experience.

• Embouchure (tightness of lips or bow pressure on the string)

• Vibrato (affects Pitch or Embouchure via an LFO)

• Tonguing (simulates half-tonguing damping of saxophone reed)

• Amplitude (controls volume without changing the timbre)

• Breath Noise (adds widely variable breath sound)

• Growl (affects Pressure via an LFO)

• Dynamic Filter (controls the cutoff frequency of the Modifier Filter)

• Harmonic Enhancer (changes the harmonic structure of the sound)

In the end one could discuss wether thisnkind of moddeling is more like added effects, or like true moddeling... Yet there certainly are some mathematicall models at work...

[aron]

>Yet there certainly are some mathematicall models at work...

YES FOR SURE!
But really.... I doubt an awesome cutting edge technology like the VL1 will come again from Yamaha. (I should change this). What I mean is that I doubt awesome cutting edge technology will come out just to showcase like a DX7 or VL1 - the type of synthesis that awaits the programmer. What I believe we may find is "awesome cutting edge technology" that makes a good piano sound or EP sound etc.... In fact, maybe all will be hidden from the user (the programming aspect). That's what I think.

From a business standpoint, you can extend AWM to have great filters etc... and just make "darn good sounds" and really that's what most people want. "Darn good sounds". Of course sounds are subjective but I would guess most people want "good sounds" way more than powerful synthesis.

Think about it, if everyone wanted powerful synthesis, most of us would be playing the K series from Kurzweil. Was there anything more powerful than that in a performing keyboard for mass sale?

Like anything else - the workers are getting older, the demographic changing, now maybe they say - WOW check out this OLD FM stuff... you mean we can make a $500 keyboard with tiny keys and resell it? Lets go for it!!!!!!

I don't know Bachus, perhaps you know something I don't (highly likely) but my feeling is the VL1 will never come back in the form it was so I await the day the power supply will go out and that will be a sad day. My breath controllers are already waiting for the day the crappy cord will break.

[Kevin Nolan]

Where are you getting that from? Am keen to read about it. I have followed these technologies out of interest for some time but have not encountered this. Very interesting indeed.

[Kevin Nolan]

Yamaha's DNA include two critical aspects of synthesis: Performance / Synthesizers as musical instruments; and synthesis innovation. that's it. That's Yamaha. Agreed they have not been there for over a decade - but - Reface is an intent statement towards performance; and by the sounds of it they are also engaging innovative synthesis.

Risky, but, Yamaha's DNA. If you want what you describe - buy a Kronos.

That's the point, Kevin. That was their DNA up until the turn of the century that gave us a whole bunch of innovative products which I have most of. Their DNA since then is rehashed AWM2, AWM2, and then some more AWM2, which has no appeal to me as their has been no advancment in AWM2 since the EX5. Bigger wave roms for sure, but the SY range showed what you could do with limited wave rom.

I do hope the pointers and hints (like that Richard Divine post) are right and that Yamaha have rediscovered their Mojo. But, I'll believe it when I see it on the basis that that will then give me the pleasant surprise rather than yet more disappointment.

But you (and others) have dismissed Reface - because you don't like mini-keys. There's something already going in with it - and with Yamaha. You don't have to like it, but you're in denial that it's worth anything.

The build quality, care of performance design, and supporting web-portal point to Yamaha giving this earnest thought.

As said - you don't have to like it, but, it's a radical departure from Motif, a full recognition of their past legacy of performance synthesizers, an earnest new approach and a company-level infrastructural support mechanism. OK if you want to ignore this, but it matters, as a start.

It's like theres a blind prejudice, as if Reface didn't happen - because you want a better workstation! I don't get it.

[aron]

Mini keys are fun and easy to put on other keyboards!

I remember when the mini keyboard was my DX7 on top of the Oberheim!
I also like my CS-01 and KX5, two great mini-keybeds.

Isn't it true that Yamaha and possibly Roland keyboards are slightly thinner width-wise than other keybeds???

[Derek Cook]

Yamaha's DNA include two critical aspects of synthesis: Performance / Synthesizers as musical instruments; and synthesis innovation. that's it. That's Yamaha. Agreed they have not been there for over a decade - but - Reface is an intent statement towards performance; and by the sounds of it they are also engaging innovative synthesis.

Risky, but, Yamaha's DNA. If you want what you describe - buy a Kronos.

That's the point, Kevin. That was their DNA up until the turn of the century that gave us a whole bunch of innovative products which I have most of. Their DNA since then is rehashed AWM2, AWM2, and then some more AWM2, which has no appeal to me as their has been no advancment in AWM2 since the EX5. Bigger wave roms for sure, but the SY range showed what you could do with limited wave rom.

I do hope the pointers and hints (like that Richard Divine post) are right and that Yamaha have rediscovered their Mojo. But, I'll believe it when I see it on the basis that that will then give me the pleasant surprise rather than yet more disappointment.

But you (and others) have dismissed Reface - because you don't like mini-keys. There's something already going in with it - and with Yamaha. You don't have to like it, but you're in denial that it's worth anything.

The build quality, care of performance design, and supporting web-portal point to Yamaha giving this earnest thought.

As said - you don't have to like it, but, it's a radical departure from Motif, a full recognition of their past legacy of performance synthesizers, an earnest new approach and a company-level infrastructural support mechanism. OK if you want to ignore this, but it matters, as a start.

It's like theres a blind prejudice, as if Reface didn't happen - because you want a better workstation! I don't get it.

Kevin, that's simply because I am looking for a workstation instrument from Yamaha (that is not AWM2 based as I have that in spades, and then some, in an EX5), not something small and portable (I have an iPad and Korg Nanokey and/or Line 6 Remote Keys for that). I would not call that blind prejudice.

I fully accept that Reface is targeting a market and is selling well. I have posted that elsewhere (either on this forum on on Yamaha Forums), including mentioning the positive write up in Sound on Sound. I accept I am not currently in that target market, as I am simply not interested in the form factor. That's not blind prejudice, nor denial - that's a thing called personal preference.

Whether or not you can extrapolate the Reface concept to Yamaha doing something interesting at the high end remains to be seen. I'll be one of the happiest people on the planet if Yamaha have rediscovered their innovation in the high end segment that I am interested in, but like I said, I'll believe it when I see it, as all we have so far is conjecture and speculation. i.e. "Reface + some ambiguous comment from Richard Devine on alien technology" may or may not be a pointer as to what is to come in any future Yamaha Product Range. I guess we'll find out soon.

[Kevin Nolan]

OK Derek - and by they way - debating here with best intentions - good will - and deep respect for you and everyone else here - but -

Yamaha already have a good workstation - two of them - Motif and Tyros. We here might not regard them as 'quite Kronos' - but they are magnificent in their own right. Surely any advancement of that is already happening though a maturing process.

Most people's beef with Yamaha over the past 10 years has not been your beef. Traditional Yamaha synthesists do not want another workstation - they want Yamaha to get involved with synthesis in the way they are good at - performance control and innovative synthesis. Nobody bought an SY77, SY99 or EX5 because of their workstation capabilities - they bought them for their synthesis capabilities and their performance control. so it's been about synthesis, not about the release of workstations.


And now they've started to address that. Whether it's the complete article or not yet (it isn't!) it needs to be acknowledged, and the weight of your argument as been as if it's essentially pointless (to you). I'm pointing out the significant step forward it represents to many other traditional Yamaha users, myself included.

I think you're undervaluing what Reface already represents - it's a total departure from their past 10 years, a recognition of their best legacy, a nod to performance control and a pointer to the future. I don't believe there's any "having to wait and see" - with respect to seeing if Yamaha are prepared to engage their synthesis legacy - they just did it already!

You just don't value it, or want it; but that does not mean it hasn't already happened. Not liking it is fine - no argument there - but to traditional Yamaha synthesists the situation is now different. In 2015 Yamaha released a new line of synthesizers, with quite innovative features. I has happened.

We have been reading for months now of the trademark Montage, and Richard Devine waxing lyrical about extraordinary new synthesis from Yamaha about to come.

Overall - a different situation to the one you, and many here, are portraying, in my opinion.

[chilly7]

my personal feeling

Montage = Motif xf + new piano sample + FM section

Partly right..
But it will be much much more...
If you look at what Yamaha did with other instruments since the release of the Motif XS/Xf...
If you have read the inside information on http://sandsoftwaresound.net/ ...
If you have seen what Steinberg did with Hallion 5...
If you know how Yamaha opperates...

then you will know what to expect....

- AWM technollogy will make a huge step (Halion modularrity) into combining sampling with all kinds of virtuall technollogies (VL, AN, CS, YC, FM, SCM, AEM, VRM, etc etc) that make it a true modular engine...

- Hardware will get an update, not to the level of Kronos, but it will make a huge step...

- The Montage will be fully audio capable, not just playing audio, but realtime manupilation of audio to...

- but also you can expect many things that Kontakt (NI) VST can do, like ensemble and orchestral to be inside...

- New drum engine...

- huge improvement of the number of voices and effects...

- Full integration with Cubase 8.5, even more then now, expect to see functionallity comparable to NI komplete and Akai VIP...

- touchscreen OS...

- it will be a full fnctioning Audio interface for any PC or laptop...


It took them long enough, but they will finally make an instrument on level with the Kronos, but much more userfriendly to opperate (this is where they make the biggest step)...

Will it feel alien?
Probably only to Motif users, that havent used anything else in the past decade or so...

People have these alien technologies already with PCs(Mac Windows).

[Bachus]

my personal feeling

Montage = Motif xf + new piano sample + FM section

Partly right..
But it will be much much more...
If you look at what Yamaha did with other instruments since the release of the Motif XS/Xf...
If you have read the inside information on http://sandsoftwaresound.net/ ...
If you have seen what Steinberg did with Hallion 5...
If you know how Yamaha opperates...

then you will know what to expect....

- AWM technollogy will make a huge step (Halion modularrity) into combining sampling with all kinds of virtuall technollogies (VL, AN, CS, YC, FM, SCM, AEM, VRM, etc etc) that make it a true modular engine...

- Hardware will get an update, not to the level of Kronos, but it will make a huge step...

- The Montage will be fully audio capable, not just playing audio, but realtime manupilation of audio to...

- but also you can expect many things that Kontakt (NI) VST can do, like ensemble and orchestral to be inside...

- New drum engine...

- huge improvement of the number of voices and effects...

- Full integration with Cubase 8.5, even more then now, expect to see functionallity comparable to NI komplete and Akai VIP...

- touchscreen OS...

- it will be a full fnctioning Audio interface for any PC or laptop...


It took them long enough, but they will finally make an instrument on level with the Kronos, but much more userfriendly to opperate (this is where they make the biggest step)...

Will it feel alien?
Probably only to Motif users, that havent used anything else in the past decade or so...

People have these alien technologies already with PCs(Mac Windows).

Who cares about pc's ... They are still unfit for playing live with their loading times and stuff...


This is a keyboard forum, and most people here are musicians and not producers... And musicians like to make music with instruments and not with PC's.

[Derek Cook]

Nobody bought an SY77, SY99 or EX5 because of their workstation capabilities - they bought them for their synthesis capabilities and their performance control. so it's been about synthesis, not about the release of workstations.

Not quite nobody. I purchased an EX5 in 1999 because it was a workstation that included as well as a good sounding AWM2 engine, FDSP, AN, VL and user sampling and a very capable performance mode (which is still one of the best IMHO). When I say capable performance mode I am of course not referring to the DSP performance limitations that hamstrung it when using the "special" voices, but the control and flexibility that you have for zoning and controlling external instruments.

I.e. I purchased the EX5 for the complete integrated package, which was also the buying choice behind the Kronos compared to what Yamaha had to offer at the time. And part of that choice is the concept of multiple sound engines in the two devices, all of which have a different character.

I agree that I would not have relied much on the SY limited workstation capabilities, and because I already had the EX5, I purchased my SY77 and SY99 purely for the sonic capabilities. Indeed, my SYs never venture outside of Voice mode.

Your opinions on the subject are interesting, although I do not necessarily agree with all of them. I will still wait and see what comes out of Yamaha to see if it ticks the boxes in what I personally am looking for.

[chilly7]

Partly right..
But it will be much much more...
If you look at what Yamaha did with other instruments since the release of the Motif XS/Xf...
If you have read the inside information on http://sandsoftwaresound.net/ ...
If you have seen what Steinberg did with Hallion 5...
If you know how Yamaha opperates...

then you will know what to expect....

- AWM technollogy will make a huge step (Halion modularrity) into combining sampling with all kinds of virtuall technollogies (VL, AN, CS, YC, FM, SCM, AEM, VRM, etc etc) that make it a true modular engine...

- Hardware will get an update, not to the level of Kronos, but it will make a huge step...

- The Montage will be fully audio capable, not just playing audio, but realtime manupilation of audio to...

- but also you can expect many things that Kontakt (NI) VST can do, like ensemble and orchestral to be inside...

- New drum engine...

- huge improvement of the number of voices and effects...

- Full integration with Cubase 8.5, even more then now, expect to see functionallity comparable to NI komplete and Akai VIP...

- touchscreen OS...

- it will be a full fnctioning Audio interface for any PC or laptop...


It took them long enough, but they will finally make an instrument on level with the Kronos, but much more userfriendly to opperate (this is where they make the biggest step)...

Will it feel alien?
Probably only to Motif users, that havent used anything else in the past decade or so...

People have these alien technologies already with PCs(Mac Windows).

Who cares about pc's ... They are still unfit for playing live with their loading times and stuff...


This is a keyboard forum, and most people here are musicians and not producers... And musicians like to make music with instruments and not with PC's.

You sounds so aggressive. That's not good.
I am interested in PCs. In Mac particularly.

Loading times? lol. PC with SSD loads fester then your top of the line keyboard. And even if it was are you harry on a train or what? Why you cannot wait PC to load?

PC is a general purpose thing. And usually general purpose things can do many things but are not good and best in anything but PC is exception. It canbe good and best in anything. It just depends how good program is written.

In fact keyboards you call instruments are PCs too + software+ controller + audiointerface.

In PCs world i can buy these parts separately to my needs. In PC world hardwear is more powerful and better. Software is much more better and there is a bigger selection of it. I am not artificially locked to one brand and i do not have to buy a new hardware with each version of software. I can upgrade hardware.
I do not need to tell on forums to manufacture that i want to record at Wave 32bit/192Khz at 64bit audio engine but i get response that todays market goes to mp3 and most people listen music on cellphone so we put ultrabook hardwear to you keybord at best. But i just buy Workstation PC with server grade hardwear and do what i want. Live or in studio.

[DodgingRain]

I just hope it isn't full of half baked ideas like reface is and I hope the new thing has some real synthesis capabilities that are not dumbed down like reface.

[Bachus]

I just hope it isn't full of half baked ideas like reface is and I hope the new thing has some real synthesis capabilities that are not dumbed down like reface.

Seems to me that reface underlying technollogy is a springoff from the same parrents as the uocomming montage..