Yamaha New Synth with Alien Technology

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Kevin Nolan
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Post by Kevin Nolan »

It may be that Kronos has a serious competitor after all!

Montage contains ten times the PCM samples of Motif - that's getting serious, plus a new FM-X synthesis engine. That is can read the legacy of Motif programs, and can also read the 71,000 program legacy of DX FM programs is a game changer for me - very often it's by harnessing the best of thousands of programmers that these instruments really begin to 'sing'. Have never been a fan of Motif, but this is a different beast altogether; and for us long term FM heads - it's Christmas all over again :-)

If it is compatible with SY RCM programs that would be incredible (but unclear if that's the case). And with sophisticated DSP effects, perhaps we can even hope for a nod towards FDSP type effects.

Coupled with 256 note polyphony, and FM-X capabilities that taxed Richard Devine's mind for weeks - I think we're seeing Yamaha back on track! I'm excited. It validates all my moaning - there is room for serious, performance based synthesis after all.

I haven't bought a new synth in 5 years, but the purchase of this along with a Moog Sub37 (hoping for a Moog Sub44 at NAMM :-) ), a DSI Pro2, Reface CS and Reface CP means it's going to be a very exciting synth-update delivery from Thomann sometime over the next six months :-)


Yamaha are back!
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Post by drama1 »

Since I highly doubt there will ever be a 76/73 synth weighted Kronos, I'm going to take a serious look at this board. My back just can't handle the weight of the 73/88 Kronos.
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Post by EvilDragon »

They should've added a VA engine there too...
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jimknopf
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Post by jimknopf »

Serious competitor for the Kronos without any subtractive syntheis engine/s?
Not from view.

But hey, everybody will buy what is useful for him/her.
Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5
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cachete1966
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Yamaha Montage its true

Post by cachete1966 »

The new Yamaha workstation .

AWV2 + FMX, twince polyphony, fx and ten times wave data. Color touchscreen and a big knob for multiple parameters at the same time, 61,76 & 88 keys, Motion control ( may be is like SA2 amazing superarticulation in Tyros 5 and clavinovas 7 series)

I read an article about the new chip for this news keyboards generations:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/new-workstation-namm-2016/

Very good article.

Today was a first pic and confirmation about this new synth.!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-EenuTyd1OgA/V ... ontage.png


Cool...!!
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Post by burningbusch »

The engines in the Kronos shouldn't be taken lightly. They add a sophistication specific to the sound not possible with a generic sample-playback engine. For example, the SGX and EP-1 properly handle release samples and noises. SGX-2 provides string resonance and una corda. EP-1 provides seamless tonal transitions from ppp to fff. Sampled Hammond waveforms are a far cry from a completely modeled Hammond tonewheel, preamp and Leslie. And modeled analog synth engines with self-oscillating filters, etc. are pretty damn important. The Kronos is still the only thing out there that streams factory and user samples from SSD. Set List mode with SST is still the best thing out there for live performance.

So no I don't see the Montage as a direct competitor to the Kronos. Nor do I see the Nord Stage as a direct competitor. They each stand alone with pretty clear strengths and shortcomings. I think these three companies have their own unique vision and the products reflect that.

I hope Yamaha has created a synth with a lot of programming depth. That there's something about it that moves the ball forward rather than always looking backwards. Time will tell.

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cachete1966
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Post by cachete1966 »

Yes ... I know... Im a kronos user ( i bought my kronos november 2011).

But i work with keyboards sales and i see all the time the people buying keyboards and i see who sell more and why..!

Yamaha. The people buy with the close eyes. The guys said: motif: Do you have motif...?

Korg. Are customers with some knowledge. The guys Said: this is new..? I dont know this Kronos... Is new?. (still happen)

The most important is: the sound quality and the reliables instrument with a good advertising.

The people too manny times are afraid about too complex UI or too manny technology.

We... The keyboards fans and serius keyboards players .. Learn, use and enjoy all the synthesys in Kronos. I love this keyboard. Is really amazing. Endless in sound capacity and sound desing and wonderful for live use...
But we are a minority. Sorry but is true.

The customer (and the manufactures knows that... Well may be) buy sound and simplicity to use. Sounds ready to go. If the workstation have this... And is easy to use, fast start-on and reliable brand... is a bestseller.

Edit parameters, deep programing, serius sample edit, differents synthesys, sound design, is only for us... The techno musicians... The commons are very simple. Great pianos, strings, brass, drums, organs are enought for the rest.

We need see And play this Montage.
When you play a Clavinova 7 series and tyros5 (only the sound section) and hear the super articulation working in a string solo sound... You said... Why workstations doesnt have this technology...? Some rumors said that this new keyboard have this technology... Plus synthesys and real edition.

The tyros5 have an amazing organ section (small in edit capacity) but amazing in sound. The same with ensemble Technology.

The customer doesnt care if a sample technology or emulate tech or real organ section. The sound is that really matters.

Perhaps yamaha mixed the Tyros/clavinova sound technology with Motif workstation/synth capacity in this new product.

I dont said if is better or worst than Kronos. But i love the keyboards. And if this is a beast machine... And make amazing things to play better and sound great.... I want one.

Thats all.

A kronos and montage toghether in live.

Cool.
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Post by Jan1 »

When you consider the fact that the Motif ES already had expansion slots for several engines plus the fact that the KRONOS has no less than nine different engines, then the inclusion of FM-X on a new Motif for 'tonal variety' is anything but spectacular.
But then again, I don't think it was Yamaha's intention to build anything like the KRONOS, but more to build a sequel to the SY77 while also continuing the legacy of the Motif series.
There are still a lot of questions, but I have to say that at the moment I cannot get super excited over this 'next generation' instrument. Maybe it will come...

However, this is not what I came to expect when I read Richard Devine's remark: 'This synthesizer has new technology that's never been implemented before, so it's totally alien to anything I've used'.
Surely this does not sound like it pertains to the Montage which has AWM and FM technology, so was he referring to maybe another upcoming synth of Yamaha?
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Post by SanderXpander »

I wonder if Montage reads DX7 presets or if Korg is ahead of them even there.
Good news on the high polyphony and increased effects though. If they had a serious clonewheel and VA in there they'd be starting to look like competition.
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Derek Cook
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Post by Derek Cook »

I think details are a little too sketchy right now to make judgements.

Whilst not containing all of the synth engines I would like to have seen in "a Yamaha on steroids", there was a lot of mileage in the AWM/AFM combination of the SY Range, and they could produce some pretty analog sounding voices along with AWM/FM sounds as you would expect. So if the Montage extends that concept, it is worthy of exploration.

I think we need to understand
  • How more complex the AWM engine is?
  • Precisely what "motion control is"
  • What FM-X is over and above vanilla FM. Does it have elements of AFM or FS1r formant synthesis or does it go beyond that? Does RCM make a comeback?
So, whilst I am not rushing out to buy one just yet, my interest is aroused, and I want more info. I am still looking for a new controller board (that also makes sound!) that complements my Kronos to retire my EX5 from gigging (nothing wrong with the EX5 other than I am getting nervous about gigging an old synth following one PSU failure).
Last edited by Derek Cook on Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by aron »

OK, you guys might be fixating too much on the AWM and FM. Look, none of these are new - they might have twists and maybe modulate each other like the SY99, but the big news to me is the old "Motion Control" part!!!!

The SY22 debuted something I always wanted - motion control with recording. The JP-8000 had it and hopefully the Montage has it.
What is it?

The ability to start a sound and start twisting knobs.... The knob changes are recorded and played back automatically. None of this envelope editing crap - just twist the knobs, create your own envelope in real time. I've wanted this for so long I was going to make my own version on the iPad.

IF the Montage has this, it will have serious fun potential. FINALLY more than 128 voices.

TOO BAD I just spent all my $$ on the damn iPad Pro and CASIO! hahahaha
Maybe I can afford the new Korg Analog!
Korg Kronos, RD-88, Yamaha VL1, Deep Mind 6, Korg Kross, author of unrealBook for iPad.
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Post by aron »

OK here's how you can tell if Yamaha has really changed their ways....

256 note polyphony right???

OK, if it's 128+128, they haven't changed.

If it's truly dynamic polyphony - either FM or AWM, they are changing and for the better!

The OLD way, I already had "32 note polyphony" on my SY99 - yeah 16 notes AWM + 16 FM = no fun.
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cachete1966
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read

Post by cachete1966 »

The most important is the new chip technology.....

Is the real difference here.

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/new-workstation-namm-2016/

The touch screen and the motion control too but the chipset make a big improvement.
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Post by Kevin Nolan »

I was recently given the nod by someone that something from Yamaha was coming and that I'd like it.

Coupled to Richard Dvine saying that what's coming has alien technology it took home weeks to get his head around; I think we're only getting the bare bones of what's in Montage. Alternatively, there is something else coming as well.

The name Montage and a new FMX synth engine with the new and sophisticated hints out there suggest this is a significant synth beast, where traditional FM is, by default, accommodated. My point being - I think this will be versatile.


Regarding the posts on the versatility of Kronos - I fully endorse that. As an owner of two OASYS, I still, every day, 10 years later, power it on and still feel it's like an exciting new beast. No other synthesizer, other than the CS80, has ever given me that feeling over such a long time. And indeed MOD-7 is gargantuan in its own right, but alas has essentially remained unused by new musicians and programmers so it has never been exploited like it can be. MOD-7 is a cutting edge semi-modular digital synthesizer, which can accommodate traditional FM and indeed elements of RCM synthesis, and is a credit to Korg, and indeed to Korg R&D and Dan Philips. An awesome synth engine, still to be exploited.


I'm not looking to compare Montage and Kronos - but I am delighted that Yamaha are now including serious synthesis back in the large format synth/ workstation. It's important because it delivers amazing sonic results (as the SY77 and EX5 at their best still demonstrate today FAR beyond traditional Romplers).

And, although Motif always underwhelmed me, the more recent MOX range seemed to me more stylish, and by then, Yamaha's 'synth' attributes in it were exquisite - in particular its filters sound very good indeed - so if Montage builds on that, with all the other bells and whistles, it probably doesn't matter whether is has a Virtual Analogue synth on board - it's Rompler waveforms and subseqend digital / VA synthesis are good enough by now (heck I love my JD800 as a kind of VA even though its waveforms are PCM and its digital filters from 1991).

In any case - FM-X will be a VA by default - is you don't use any oscillator modulation, as with MOD-7. Not sure how many realise that, without modulation, MOD-7 is an amazing VA with 6 oscillators per voice - and with the ability to randomly set the phase of each oscillator, sound amazing. Can't remember the exact polyphony of it, but, if 50 voice polyphony - gives 300 oscillators available to a program. I have one Unison program (16 note unison) with two Mod-7 sounds playing in the program so that as single note stacks about 80 oscillators - on one note :-)

So it's highly likely FM-X can be configured similarly (even the DX7, SY77 and sY99 can operate in this way!) - delivering an awesome VA synth too.


Finally. - if this is successful, it legitimises the market, and can only but provide both healthy competition for Korg and a push to extend Kronos towards a bright future too whether updated or renewed.
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Post by billysynth1 »

Hi

I think one important thing is left our from your discussions...doesn't Stephen Kay have a contract with Yamaha?

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