Montage by Yamaha

[Kevin Nolan]

I definitely agree with those sentiments. The Montage, as fine as it is, is quite pricy given it isn't a full fledged workstation, or as equipped as the Kronos or Nord equivalents across the full gauntlet of standard gigging keyboard sounds - virtual drawbars organ, dedicated Electric Piano 'engines' and so forth

For the likes of me - an FM synth 'nut' this is a dream machine - but it's far from clear that many will be willing to part with more than $3000 for this instrument.


As good as it's electric piano performance set sounded in demos, I think players these days need to be convinced that such an an instrument has dedicated 'engines' (whether crafted sample libraries or virtual acoustic engines) of organs, clavs, electric pianos (CP, Rhodes and Whurlitzer). Korg have been very clear about SGX-1, EP-1 and CX-3 from the outset, for this reason.


It may well be with 8x the PCM capacity of Motif that the Montage puts the likes of the Nord Stage and Nord Electro to shame by comparison - but - we' don't know! Yamaha are not saying as much.

So while I'm definitely prejudiced for this instrument because I adore the SY77 and 99 and will get a Montage, in my opinion Yamaha are missing a trick or two and leaving themselves vulnerable to buyer uncertainty regarding comparisons with the competition in the following ways:

- Buyers don't quite know what to expect with regard to the quality of its pianos, organs and clavs, over all; and Yamaha are not marketing this aspect of it very well - surely a market they need to compete in what with the strength of Kronos and Nord's in particular

- What with Reface CP and YP technology demonstrated to be exquisite, and at a low price, surely they should have included those engines in Montage

- If they are going to mention from the outset a developmental program for Montage (which they have), then surely it would have made sense to give some indicators as to what's coming down the line.

- I'm not convinced by Yamaha's "Balanced Hammer Action" keyboard in their 88 note version. To me, Balanced Hammer Action is too springy, and even KORG / OASYS RH2 is superior in my opinion. In particular, I don't understand why Yamaha refuse to incorporate the GH3 action into the 88 note version of Motif and Montage. From their blurb, they seem to be trying to strike a compromise between what synth and organ players need, as distinct from what piano players need. But I think both loose out - and Yamaha should bite the bullet on this and realise that synth / organ players can buy the 76 note version, and offer the very best keybed they have, for piano players. Balanced Hammer action has had its day, and Yamaha need to embrace their own best hammer action technology in all their top end 88 note instruments, including Montage.


They can provide an amazing Bosendorfer 290 Sample set, but having to play it over balanced hammer action kills it for me.


Overall, Montage is a very smart package in my opinion - it has a huge amount going for it straight out of the box, but I fully understand those who might doubt it - for the price. Not many will be willing to fork out that money for an FM synth engine, however good it is; and the sooner Yamaha either clarify the quality of their built in electric pianos and related keyboard sounds , and show their developmental hand in such area with very high quality offerings; they may not sell as many as they hope.


It's certainly a risk to drop the Motif given its extraordinary success, I would have thought there was a parallel market for an improved Motif with the 8x AWM waveforms too?

It will be an interesting year or two for Yamaha.

[SanderXpander]

Have you ever spent time with FM8, Kevin?
Since it can be had for a fraction of the cost of the Montage and it's quite powerful.

[Kevin Nolan]

And indeed that's the point isn't it? NI FM8, thousands of 2nd hand DX and SY instruments across ebay and indeed FM synthesis available within Ableton and Reason - and even - Logic Pro's Retro Synth has an FM engine that's quite respectable and very user friendly (indeed I absolutely love Logic's Retro Synth for its VA and PPG type engines too. It's like having a user friendly Minimoog, DX7 and PPG 2.3 all in one easy to use but sonically powerful package)

So the question for Yamaha surely is - how many people are anticipating an 8-operator FM synth, even with Motion Control, to deliver their needs.

In my opinion this will sell on the strength of its standard keyboard sounds - so that 8x AWM and Bosendorfer Piano are going to be every bit as important to Montage as is the FM-X engine.

Yamaha usually benefit from big names like Stevie Wonder to use their flagship instrument and that surely helps with profile. Motif had nothing particularly special about it at all, yet it sold far better than the competition. So this might be plain sailing for them where Motif users will upgrade in their droves based on the AWM engine, while high profile acts will do the 'selling'.

I remember about 15 years ago being on premises of Yamaha Ireland (I knew them well and called in regularly) where a well know Irish musician called Phil Coulter was starting an Ireland/UK tour. So what was sitting on the floor of Yamaha Ireland - two brand new C5 Grand Pianos, donated to Phil Coulter, for the concert tour. Yamaha know how to treat high profile acts, rest assured! Montage will be on high profile rigs across the planet, donated by Yamaha.

[skinmechanic]

You could say the same about the Kronos. ALL the engines with the exception of the HD and CX are available elsewhere. The Korg Polysix, MS20 and Wavestation plugins are already available, yet people still want a Kronos.

As for what does it sound like, if the Mofif XF sounded goo (which it did) then the fact this is 10x more memory then it's going to be an enhanced version of that with an 8 Operator FM synth to blend your sounds with it.

It's overpriced for sure, but I think the Kronos is also for basically a standard PC motherboard inside a controller keyboard with a Linux OS. Then again I have the Kronos having had the Motif XF and Roland JP80 just because it gives the flexibility within a stable environment.

[Bachus]

Don't remember where, but it was said that USB midi and DIN midi can't be used at the same time with the Montage-


.

I had a friend of mine that has a music store in Califoria ask some questions to Yamaha, that arose with me after reading the manuall... You probably read it in a post of mine

This was the answer he got at Namm...


But then, its probably software based and could still be changed before release..

[marc1]

You could say the same about the Kronos. ALL the engines with the exception of the HD and CX are available elsewhere. The Korg Polysix, MS20 and Wavestation plugins are already available, yet people still want a Kronos.

As far as I know the MOD-7, SGX 2, EP-1, STR-1 and Al-1 are not available elsewhere and even if they were, I'm sure Korg would offer them with less functionality (which is what they did with the MS 20 and Polysix pc software-so don't expect to be able to do the same with it as with a Kronos).

Another point is ( and that's actually the whole selling point of a Kronos), it's an embedded system, which means that the software has been optimized for the hardware components it's running on and all of it's software components (like sequencer and sound engines) are programmed to seamlessly integrate with one another.

So, I beg to differ. The Kronos is different from a PC with a controller attached to it (and personally, i have yet to find a system that offers the same immediacy and well laid out functionality as Kronos).

[Kevin Nolan]

@skinmechanic: I'm with marc1 on this one.

I think you make a valid point about 8x AWM of Motif guaranteeing a certain quality - no doubt about that.

But for Kronos - remember - it comes from the R&D effort of OASYS - an $8000 workstation.

So what Kronos owners are getting - OASYS + a whole lot more, for half the price, is actually fabulous value for money. And, as marc1 points out - there are 9 engines in Korons, you get a latency free massive polyphony - even a top end MBP with 16GB of RAM (which I own ) - struggles with that amount of polyphony from DAW plugins (for Virtual Analogue plugins that is).

Montage offers similar quality and power, latency free, for sure!

[Bachus]

@skinmechanic: I'm with marc1 on this one.

I think you make a valid point about 8x AWM of Motif guaranteeing a certain quality - no doubt about that.

But for Kronos - remember - it comes from the R&D effort of OASYS - an $8000 workstation.

So what Kronos owners are getting - OASYS + a whole lot more, for half the price, is actually fabulous value for money. And, as marc1 points out - there are 9 engines in Korons, you get a latency free massive polyphony - even a top end MBP with 16GB of RAM (which I own ) - struggles with that amount of polyphony from DAW plugins (for Virtual Analogue plugins that is).

Montage offers similar quality and power, latency free, for sure!

The Oasys was next to a great instrument the best indepth investment Korg made..

But its been over 4 years since the Kronos entered the arena, and with the Montage comming Close, i expect Korg to set the next step with their technollogy somehwere in the upcomming year, surely they must have been developing new stuff to add to the Kronos concept?

-New Engines, and upgrades of old ones
-Upgraded 21st century interface
-New tools, like the easy accesible sequencer in the gadget app?

How would people react if they mde all the stuff they deloped for ipad a part of a Kronos replacement?


When you look at the montage, it tells you where there is room fro improvements... Mostly an upgraded interface, and new features for live performance would be welcome..
I also will keep praying for an upgraded version of the HD1 engine with features like DNC espescially the legato detection, and the orchestral and ensemble scripting from Kontakt..
And a seccond prayer for the revivall of an improved MOSS engine... or just more processing power for efects, after the Montage having only 12 insert effects shows room for future improvements. and hopefully 32 channels multitimbrallity, so you can run a 16 track sequence and have 16 parts performance..



The Kronos is awesome, and i dont use my VST's collection much since really diving head deep into it, but with the Montage Yamaha is getting close, it would be wise for Korg to take another step, just to keep the difference back to the montage for clear..

The Kronos as base of any synth makes a great thing, and extra processor power and memmory almost comes for free these days espescially since Korg is using standard intel hardware. The most expensive hurdle will be upgrading the OS to 64 bit. (not the synth engines, because they can run in 32 bit mode on a 64 bit OS) but a 64 bit OS would open up more memmory and more processor power from the same hardware.


Anyway.... Korg should make it happen to keep Yamaha at a distance.. But also Roland, there is so many sales actions for Jupiter 80 one would almost believe a new top of the line product from Roland at Musikmesse.

[Kevin Nolan]

I don't see Kronos developing, at all. They have added on what they could beyond OASYS - but - the basics are the same. Most telling for me is that the common engines are identical, as is the sequencer. Not an iota of development. Kronos was a means of recouping the R&D costs of OASYS - with the addition of Pianos. But in my opinion, that is it. Its a vehicle for Korg to earn money - not spend money on serious development, by ethos. It's OASYS for the masses, not an independent product with a planned evolution path, as had Triton, for example. I thought that from the day Kronos was released and the lack of development bares that out, in my opinion.

It's been 10 years - and not an iota of development in the synthesiser engines, effects, operating system (basic capabilities) or sequencer.

I don't see this as a bad thing by the way. I see it as a different approach - as in - all the development needed was done from the outset. Lets be honest - essentially no Kronos owner is harnessing any more than a few percent of capabilities of AL-1, MS20ES, STR-1, or MOD-7. They just aren't being programmed or used to anything like their potential. So why would Korg put R&D into new engines when the current ones aren't use to great effect.



Where I am surprised is the lack of development in the User Interface and GUI aspect to AL-1, MOD-7, STR-1 and Karma. All of those are highly complex, generalised, deep 'engines' and surely could have become more popular with more development into ease of usability, new GUI elements, simplification, and new but serious dedicated sound banks (for the synths).

In my opinion, one of the more problematic aspects of OASYS and Kronos - for earnest composers (art or media based) is the amount of 'stuff' crammed into every program and every Combi. For example- many of AL-1's programs are so laden with Karma and Step Sequencers that they are impenetrable, and remain unused. It's like Korg felt that giving endless 'demo' level movement would candy-sweeten the sound and help sell more units.

While I accept many love Karma-laden combis, the fact is that for earnest work they are utterly unusable - there's too much in there, and it's all incomprehensible - so - it doesn't get used.

So I would have loved if Korg has hired a team of programmers a few years after the release of both OASYS and Kronos to develop, for each engine, a set of 128 programs for each synth engine that were more stripped back, no Karma, minimal effects, across the gauntlet of actual needed sounds - to act as smart starting points for people needing real sounds for real performance and composing scenarios. As it stands most programs and Combis on Kronos are basically unusable.

So in my opinion, Korg could completely revitalise Kronos with a new, paid for, suite of programs and combis that exploit those serious engines, and that are far more usable. Coupled to a simplification of Karma, and a new GUI interface to AL-1, MOD-7 and STR-1, and they could reboot Kronos and win over a whole new user base. I accept the Producer Series are very good (as are their separately released effects presets) - but it didn't go far enough (in my opinion).


Korons, in many respects, is too deep and impenetrable, and in that regard is the unfinished article, to me.

A module version wouldn't co amiss either !

[burningbusch]

I don't see Kronos developing, at all. They have added on what they could beyond OASYS - but - the basics are the same. Most telling for me is that the common engines are identical, as is the sequencer. Not an iota of development. Kronos was a means of recouping the R&D costs of OASYS - with the addition of Pianos. But in my opinion, that is it. Its a vehicle for Korg to earn money - not spend money on serious development, by ethos. It's OASYS for the masses, not an independent product with a planned evolution path, as had Triton, for example. I thought that from the day Kronos was released and the lack of development bares that out, in my opinion.

It's been 10 years - and not an iota of development in the synthesiser engines, effects, operating system (basic capabilities) or sequencer.

Out of the gate the Kronos had the following improvements over the OASYS.
- Multiprocessor OS.
- SGX-1 Engine
- EP-1 Engine
- Set List Mode
- SST
- HD-1 improvements including twice the number of layers and support for disk streaming (Limited to Korg EXs initally)

The following were added via free OS updates:
• 7 more User Banks each of Programs, Wave Sequences and Drum Kits, labeled USER‐AA through USER‐GG.
• The maximum number of RAM Multisamples has been increased from 1,000 to 4,000, and the maximum numbers of RAM Samples and Multisample Indexes have each been increased from 4,000 to 16,000.
• Support for connecting USB MIDI class‐compliant controllers directly to the KRONOS.
• Installation of an additional 1GB of RAM is now supported, and can be performed at any authorized Korg service center. This approximately doubles the maximum available sample RAM, up to about 2 GB.
- New "Uninstall EXs" page menu command in the P6: Options
info page in Global mode. It will uninstall selected EXs data from the internal hard drive.
- User Sample Banks bring the benefits of Korg's EXs to your own custom sample libraries.
- The KRONOS now supports installation of a second internal SSD, for more storage of samples, audio tracks, and program data.
- The KRONOS now supports USB Ethernet adaptors for fast, easy file transfer with personal computers.
- Improved Akai and SoundFont 2.0 import
- Improved CX-3: We've added a brand-new effects section to the CX-3, with many updates and improvements to the Amp, Rotary Speaker, and Vibrato Chorus.
- Updated CX-3 Programs
- Rotary Status If you’re using a Rotary Speaker, either as an effect or in the CX-3, a new indicator at the top of the display shows the current state of the Rotary Speaker (Fast, Slow, Stop, Preamp, or Off).
- Mute Mode
Version 2.1 gives you a choice as to how the Mute buttons work in Combinations and Songs.
- Function Assign for External MIDI In
You can now map incoming MIDI controllers to any of the special functions previously available only to the rear-panel foot switch input and SW1/2.
- SGX-2
The updates to the SGX-1 are so significant that we thought it deserved an updated name as well—hence, the SGX-2. First, the SGX-2 now includes modeled String Resonance, for an even more realistic playing experience (older sounds will need to be edited manually to enable this feature). Under-the-hood changes also enable powerful new Piano Types with up to 12 velocity zones and dedicated Una Corda samples—such as those of the EXs17 Berlin D Piano.
- Touch-drag gestural input
Throughout the KRONOS, you can now simply touch your finger to a parameter and drag on the display to change its value. This applies to all knobs, sliders, drawbars, and numeric parameters. You can also touch and drag to create and delete connections on the MS-20EX and MOD-7 patch panels.
- Editing Programs from within a Combination or Song
You can now jump directly into the editing pages of a Program from within a Combination or Song—while still hearing all of the other Timbres or Tracks. Tweak a step sequencer pattern, for instance, or experiment with patch cables in the MS-20EX.
- Vintage effects
The new Vintage effect category includes 12 effects based on the CX-3 and EP-1. Classics such as the Small Phase and Vox Wah, are now available as insert, master, and total effects.
- Set List improvements
Set Lists now support different colors for each Slot, to make them easier to distinguish quickly. Slots can now also be transposed individually. You can make more room for comments by showing only 4 or 8 Slots at a time, or show 16 Slots so that you have the maximum number of sounds under your fingertips. A new Comment Panel, accessible by touching the comment area and swiping downwards, temporarily dedicates the entire screen to the comment. You can also choose different font sizes for each Slot’s comments, from small (to fit more text without scrolling) to ultra-large (for easy visibility).

Hopefully I didn't miss anything.

Busch.

[SanderXpander]

And indeed that's the point isn't it? NI FM8, thousands of 2nd hand DX and SY instruments across ebay and indeed FM synthesis available within Ableton and Reason - and even - Logic Pro's Retro Synth has an FM engine that's quite respectable and very user friendly (indeed I absolutely love Logic's Retro Synth for its VA and PPG type engines too. It's like having a user friendly Minimoog, DX7 and PPG 2.3 all in one easy to use but sonically powerful package)

So the question for Yamaha surely is - how many people are anticipating an 8-operator FM synth, even with Motion Control, to deliver their needs.

In my opinion this will sell on the strength of its standard keyboard sounds - so that 8x AWM and Bosendorfer Piano are going to be every bit as important to Montage as is the FM-X engine.

Yamaha usually benefit from big names like Stevie Wonder to use their flagship instrument and that surely helps with profile. Motif had nothing particularly special about it at all, yet it sold far better than the competition. So this might be plain sailing for them where Motif users will upgrade in their droves based on the AWM engine, while high profile acts will do the 'selling'.

I remember about 15 years ago being on premises of Yamaha Ireland (I knew them well and called in regularly) where a well know Irish musician called Phil Coulter was starting an Ireland/UK tour. So what was sitting on the floor of Yamaha Ireland - two brand new C5 Grand Pianos, donated to Phil Coulter, for the concert tour. Yamaha know how to treat high profile acts, rest assured! Montage will be on high profile rigs across the planet, donated by Yamaha.

I just mean you seem so super excited about FM-X yet it doesn't seem spectacularly more capable than FM8 which has been available for years for not even a few hundred bucks.

[DmitryKo]

the market will say the true

Price of Kronos never drop down in 5 or more years, we will see what happens with the montage

I've heard this all before. In 2001 there were lenghty threads on the Motifator forum comparing the Motif Classic with Triton Studio, in 2003 they were talking about Motif ES and Triton Extreme, then in 2007 Motif XS and OASYS, and in 2011 Motif XF and Kronos.

15 years later, Yamaha is still there (though many contemporary DMI makers like E-mu, Alesis, AKAI, CME and others have left the "professional" synth market for good) and the Motif series seem to sell quite well and there were no price reductions or blow-out sales - though the line-up has been expanded with lower-level MM/MX and MO/MOX/MOXF, using the same Yamaha sample library.

[Kevin Nolan]

@DmitryKo - That's good stuff. but it's tinkering at the edges. I accept it's development, and very useful development. But it's the sort of stuff that a few bug-fixers / developers can do during the life cycle of the project.

And - I could give you a long list of capabilities the OASYS has which Kronos lost, so in that regard it lost a lot too.




@SanderXpander: With you on that - FM8 is exquisite!

[burningbusch]

@DmitryKo - That's good stuff. but it's tinkering at the edges. I accept it's development, and very useful development. But it's the sort of stuff that a few bug-fixers / developers can do during the life cycle of the project.

And - I could give you a long list of capabilities the OASYS has which Kronos lost, so in that regard it lost a lot too.

A long list? Outside of some hardware differences, what? There is nothing the OASYS can do sonically that the Kronos can not. But of course the opposite is not true.

Well if SGX-1/2, EP-1, Set List Mode, SST, disk streaming of samples (still the only hardware synth/workstation that does this), improvements to CX-3, vintage FXs, USB controller support, etc. etc. is "tinkering" then clearly Yamaha phoned it in with the Montage, considering it's just AWM coupled with FM (something that's been done numerous times in the past).

Busch.

[Kevin Nolan]

This is certainly "the thread that keeps on giving" isn't it!

No argument from me - I think Kronos is the finest workstation ever made. I was talking about _development_ - as in - new synthesis, new capabilities, new GUI's to existing complex synths, new (and needed) ways of using Karma - stuff that would truly 'develop' Kronos as a synthesis based workstation.

All of the improvements mentioned are substantial, powerful, enhancing - but - they are not 'new thinking'. Nothing radical has changed in its synthesis or Karma engines in ten years

Here is the new and forward thinking in Montage:

- FM-X
- Performances which radically enhance sound design capabilities, because of the eradication of program mode and all that nonsense of transferring programs to multis or combis and the loss of effects (plus Performances have 32 effects processors). In other words - Yamaha Montage Performances are, in my opinion, a huge advance on Combi's, for example; and indeed, the first time, ever, where true multi-timbral synthesis can be engaged, with free thinking and exploration, without having to compromise. This is big, in my opinion (and for example the Superknob is just one example of a new way of exploiting that capability)
- Superknob
- Motion Sequencing
- Guaranteed 128 polyphony per engine
- 16 Audio channels through class compliant USB to computer / DAW
- Sophisticated performance management (ground breaking in hardware synthesis, imo, as a media composer)
- A declared developmental path (along with OASYS (and not Kronos) - almost unique among all manufacturers, to state that there is a developmental path, from the outset)