Montage by Yamaha

[marc1]

GregC wrote:

I guess I missed the sarcasm from 5 yrs ago.

I think I saw a photoshopped picture of Korg's Namm booth at that time here on the forum.

Its interesting to us since korg and Yamaha are separate cos. Good concepts get copied all the time.

You're absolutely right. Companies keep reinventing the wheel over and over in order to keep up with the technological standards of their time, which at the moment (imho) still remains the Kronos.
My only criticism concerning the Montage is, I think it's a half hearted imitation of the Kronos. But of course, if you like Yamahas approach and think it's worth it.
Everyone's free to choose with their wallet.

[StephenKay]

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

If you google that phrase, you'll find some interesting variations on that theme, but I'll leave it at that.

[Ksynth]

More detailed demo here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q8YkNg ... ploademail

[DREY]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_HjnFAkHko

[Jan1]

I have to say, the more I hear the Montage in action, the more I like it.
I do wonder if Yamaha intends to move away from workstations entirely, including the midrange which currently consists of the MOXF. I imagine that they will use the ROM of the Montage in the successor of the MOXF, and if they want to equip that successor with a bigger touchscreen this would imply they have to invest time and resources to work on the sequencer in terms of GUI and layout if they want to turn that successor into a workstation.

[SanderXpander]

Unless I'm missing what's actually happening I don't think Motion Sequencing is like KARMA at all, even if it can accomplish SOME of the same things. The whole point of KARMA, love or hate it, is that it uses algorithms to build a performance from the notes and controllers you play. This makes it more complex but also much more interactive than any kind of static CC generation or recording.

At least conceptually they seem very different to me. Maybe Stephen has some thoughts on this?

[Mosquita Muerta]

That 2 Oscilators PAD....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htEtbghNpfE



.... " It’s hard to find a comparison for Motion Control. Other things certainly use the same concepts, like macros and automation, but the way the Montage puts modulation and animation right at your fingertips is unique. Maybe it’s closest to running multiple instances of Omnisphere, only with shoulder-devil versions of Brian Eno, Deadmau5, and John Williams weighing in on what to do next.

One could argue that Yamaha missed an opportunity by not building in even more sound engines, Kronos-style, because their back catalogue has great fodder such as the VL-1 modeling synth and the virtual analog AN-1X. It’s a valid thought, but Motion Control lets you interact with the sound in a way nothing else currently does, and the AWM2 and FM-X engines are both so deep as to generate any sound you might need, with fidelity that just may edge the Kronos a few feet down the bench at this point.

Overall, the Montage does so many things so well, and combines them in a way that’s not merely novel but musically inspiring, that it really amounts to a new category of synthesizer. While the industry ponders what to call that, we’ll call the Montage an obvious Key Buy winner..."


A touch from KORG...." Kronos (and Oasys before that) set a new standard for processing power in hardware instruments. Sure they choose for standard (and therefor relatively cheep processing hardware) but where you make sound that like a weakness, to me its the ultimate strength of the Kronos..

Anyway, i would have expected Yamaha to try and catch up to Kronos, which they obviously didnt do, they moved away from the all in one concept of workstations towards a more performance synth oriented format, because they realised they could not get close to Kronos proportions with their current hardware.. Which makes it unfair indeed to compare Montage with the Kronos... I think its best indeed to compare Montage with more performance oriented stage instruments... Like the Kurzweil Forte, Nord Stage, Roland Jupiter 80... Leaving the Korg Kronos where it is... Somewhere floating above the rest when it comes to raw power, flexibillity and creativity...

Where the Montage will shine, must be its userinteface.. So far it seems to me as if they created an easy accesibillity platform, that works like a box of buildingblocks.... But then again, you can not compare a box of buildingblocks to the drawingboard that the Kronos has to offer..."

[drb32856]

That 2 Oscilators PAD....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htEtbghNpfE



.... " It’s hard to find a comparison for Motion Control. Other things certainly use the same concepts, like macros and automation, but the way the Montage puts modulation and animation right at your fingertips is unique. Maybe it’s closest to running multiple instances of Omnisphere, only with shoulder-devil versions of Brian Eno, Deadmau5, and John Williams weighing in on what to do next.

One could argue that Yamaha missed an opportunity by not building in even more sound engines, Kronos-style, because their back catalogue has great fodder such as the VL-1 modeling synth and the virtual analog AN-1X. It’s a valid thought, but Motion Control lets you interact with the sound in a way nothing else currently does, and the AWM2 and FM-X engines are both so deep as to generate any sound you might need, with fidelity that just may edge the Kronos a few feet down the bench at this point.

Overall, the Montage does so many things so well, and combines them in a way that’s not merely novel but musically inspiring, that it really amounts to a new category of synthesizer. While the industry ponders what to call that, we’ll call the Montage an obvious Key Buy winner..."


A touch from KORG...." Kronos (and Oasys before that) set a new standard for processing power in hardware instruments. Sure they choose for standard (and therefor relatively cheep processing hardware) but where you make sound that like a weakness, to me its the ultimate strength of the Kronos..

Anyway, i would have expected Yamaha to try and catch up to Kronos, which they obviously didnt do, they moved away from the all in one concept of workstations towards a more performance synth oriented format, because they realised they could not get close to Kronos proportions with their current hardware.. Which makes it unfair indeed to compare Montage with the Kronos... I think its best indeed to compare Montage with more performance oriented stage instruments... Like the Kurzweil Forte, Nord Stage, Roland Jupiter 80... Leaving the Korg Kronos where it is... Somewhere floating above the rest when it comes to raw power, flexibillity and creativity...

Where the Montage will shine, must be its userinteface.. So far it seems to me as if they created an easy accesibillity platform, that works like a box of buildingblocks.... But then again, you can not compare a box of buildingblocks to the drawingboard that the Kronos has to offer..."

I read that Montage review in Keyboard as well. I don't know if Montage moves Kronos "a few feet down the bench" or not. I view it (in basketball terms) as Montage is a shooting guard and Kronos is the point guard. So they both play on the court together.

In the time I've had with my K61 (2 yrs), I have found the biggest problem for me has been my own lack of understanding (the learning curve) of how to do what I'm wanting to do with the instrument. This forum is a huge asset for Kronos users and it's helped me quite a bit. But maybe the Montage would overcome some of those learning curve issues for me by getting at things easier or quicker or both. Not having played it this may be an erroneous assumption on my part but it is a possibility.

One area I have not seen in any demos has been sound creation. How easy is it to start from 0 and create a whole new sound? Is the FM engine as hard to program as the original DX7 was or even the Mod 7 in Kronos? I do great with the MS20EX and PolysixEX due to their simulated interface controls. Not so much the AL-1. Does Montage do it better? I also wonder about the price. I feel the Kronos is justified at it's price with 9 engines and all the sonic possibilities on board, while the Montage should have been maybe $1,800 US for the 61 key and $2,400 for the 88. Just not enough in there to put it in the Kronos price level imho. I guess after the board gets into more peoples hands and users begin to discuss it we will learn the pros and cons of it just as we did with our Kronos.

[SanderXpander]

FM programming in general is not necessarily very complicated, it's just that the sound generation works very different from the more common subtractive synthesis VAs and most samplers use. What makes it difficult is when there is a ton of menus and very little overview of what is going on. In this case I actually think MOD7 does really, really well. If you're planning to learn to understand and program FM, the MOD7 patch panel shows you exactly how your oscillators are routed and helps you understand which frequencies are being modulated by which others.

I haven't played the Montage but it doesn't come with a freely routable patch panel as I understand it. It has a whole bunch of different "pre-patched" routings. While this will make it quick to get some sound out of it, and will help with mildly altering existing presets, I personally see it as a step back when it comes to understanding FM.

[GregC]

I tried to poll Motif owners 2 months ago to see if they would sell their Motifs and get the Montage. It was a mixed response.

maybe it will take some time for the +100,000 motif owners to decide if they want their motif sounds with a super knob.

[Kevin Nolan]

Motion Sequencing is rooted in Yamaha's former FM synthesizers (and the AN1x) - NOT Karma!

The DX1 has polyphonic aftertouch modulation capability, with each operator capable of being affected by different amounts, and polyphonically. It's an awesome feature and transforms FM. It engenders it with a live, dynamic and ever changing quality.

Similarly - the SY77 and SY99 hace looped Envelope Generators which allow you to specify what segments of a each of the 6 EGs (one per operator in the algorithm) loops - providing for another entirely different capability of motion control of FM sounds (not available in MOD-7, for example).

Finally, the AN1x provide both Scene Morphing, and "Free EGs" that provide extraordinary modulation and movement control of the AN1x synth engine.

Yamaha have been thinking about motion in FM sounds since FM's inception. Motion sequencing is the natural next step, based on former implementations.

Respectfully suggest too many here are seeing Montage incorrectly through a "Korg Lens". Yamaha have always been about performance control - and those features in Montage come from a deep rooted Yamaha legacy, long before Karma existed.

[ErnstDabest]

That 2 Oscilators PAD....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htEtbghNpfE
" ."

...Few seconds-in the video reaches straight for the superNIPPLE, turning it all red and blue.

[Mosquita Muerta]

That 2 Oscilators PAD....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htEtbghNpfE



.... " It’s hard to find a comparison for Motion Control. Other things certainly use the same concepts, like macros and automation, but the way the Montage puts modulation and animation right at your fingertips is unique. Maybe it’s closest to running multiple instances of Omnisphere, only with shoulder-devil versions of Brian Eno, Deadmau5, and John Williams weighing in on what to do next.

One could argue that Yamaha missed an opportunity by not building in even more sound engines, Kronos-style, because their back catalogue has great fodder such as the VL-1 modeling synth and the virtual analog AN-1X. It’s a valid thought, but Motion Control lets you interact with the sound in a way nothing else currently does, and the AWM2 and FM-X engines are both so deep as to generate any sound you might need, with fidelity that just may edge the Kronos a few feet down the bench at this point.

Overall, the Montage does so many things so well, and combines them in a way that’s not merely novel but musically inspiring, that it really amounts to a new category of synthesizer. While the industry ponders what to call that, we’ll call the Montage an obvious Key Buy winner..."


A touch from KORG...." Kronos (and Oasys before that) set a new standard for processing power in hardware instruments. Sure they choose for standard (and therefor relatively cheep processing hardware) but where you make sound that like a weakness, to me its the ultimate strength of the Kronos..

Anyway, i would have expected Yamaha to try and catch up to Kronos, which they obviously didnt do, they moved away from the all in one concept of workstations towards a more performance synth oriented format, because they realised they could not get close to Kronos proportions with their current hardware.. Which makes it unfair indeed to compare Montage with the Kronos... I think its best indeed to compare Montage with more performance oriented stage instruments... Like the Kurzweil Forte, Nord Stage, Roland Jupiter 80... Leaving the Korg Kronos where it is... Somewhere floating above the rest when it comes to raw power, flexibillity and creativity...

Where the Montage will shine, must be its userinteface.. So far it seems to me as if they created an easy accesibillity platform, that works like a box of buildingblocks.... But then again, you can not compare a box of buildingblocks to the drawingboard that the Kronos has to offer..."

I read that Montage review in Keyboard as well. I don't know if Montage moves Kronos "a few feet down the bench" or not. I view it (in basketball terms) as Montage is a shooting guard and Kronos is the point guard. So they both play on the court together.

In the time I've had with my K61 (2 yrs), I have found the biggest problem for me has been my own lack of understanding (the learning curve) of how to do what I'm wanting to do with the instrument. This forum is a huge asset for Kronos users and it's helped me quite a bit. But maybe the Montage would overcome some of those learning curve issues for me by getting at things easier or quicker or both. Not having played it this may be an erroneous assumption on my part but it is a possibility.

One area I have not seen in any demos has been sound creation. How easy is it to start from 0 and create a whole new sound? Is the FM engine as hard to program as the original DX7 was or even the Mod 7 in Kronos? I do great with the MS20EX and PolysixEX due to their simulated interface controls. Not so much the AL-1. Does Montage do it better? I also wonder about the price. I feel the Kronos is justified at it's price with 9 engines and all the sonic possibilities on board, while the Montage should have been maybe $1,800 US for the 61 key and $2,400 for the 88. Just not enough in there to put it in the Kronos price level imho. I guess after the board gets into more peoples hands and users begin to discuss it we will learn the pros and cons of it just as we did with our Kronos.

...If you were to compare its character to anything, in some ways it's rather like the super-expensive digital synths of the '80s, such as the Synclavier and PPG Wave...after all, already ordered it on sweetwater start shipping May 11th

[Bachus]

The more video's i see, the more i can see how Montage and Kronos add to eachother... 76 keys of Montage over 88 keys of Kronos...

The strong point of the Montage should be the easy accessible creative features expected from a performance synth... Add to that all the depth flexibillity and workstation features of the Kronos, and there is not much left to wish for...


The more video's i have watched from the montage, the more its shows how well tought and intuitive the interface Works... But... Thats only the surface of things... Now i am wondering how deep one can delve under the hood...

[Derek Cook]

The more video's i see, the more i can see how Montage and Kronos add to eachother... 76 keys of Montage over 88 keys of Kronos...

The strong point of the Montage should be the easy accessible creative features expected from a performance synth... Add to that all the depth flexibillity and workstation features of the Kronos, and there is not much left to wish for...


The more video's i have watched from the montage, the more its shows how well tought and intuitive the interface Works... But... Thats only the surface of things... Now i am wondering how deep one can delve under the hood...

Agreed. Whilst I would still love to see Yamaha "do a Kronos", they haven't, so the next best thing is to see how a Montage potentially complements a Kronos.

We'll see.....