Upper 1,2,3 Volume

[GerdH]

Hello everybody
How can you adjust the volume Upper 1,2,3 with the foot pedal.
Find in Global only Main Volume.Es is also the function expression, is not the same as volume.

Gerd

[Uncle Dave]

I've used expression pedals to control the volume of upper and lower tones for decades. I don't know of any difference. Do you?

[Snoopy]

Hi,

there is a ( more or less big ) difference between "volume" and "expression", but he has been explained it already in the german korg-forum

[karmathanever]

I thought that keyboard sound-behaviour modelling would generally treat "expression" as a subtle "volume and tone" variation.

Most keyboards I have that refer to "expression" etc etc to simply mean volume, but if you consider keyboards like the Roland Jupiter-80 then expression in its sound-behaviour modelling incorporates instrument tone.

This is just my understanding - please tell if I am wrong!!!!

Here's the good old "Wiki":-

Musical expression is the art of playing or singing music with emotional communication. The elements of music that comprise expression include dynamic indications, such as forte or piano, phrasing, differing qualities of timbre and articulation, color, intensity, energy and excitement.

Pete

[Uncle Dave]

Hi,

there is a ( more or less big ) difference between "volume" and "expression", but he has been explained it already in the german korg-forum

So, real world scenario - you start with the expression pedal down, and the sound is quiet. You push the pedal up and the sound gets louder, right? I'm not trying to be insulting, but it seems to me that this is a perfect example of a volume change. Please explain to me how your use of an expression pedal is different. I have never seen or heard anything different.

[Snoopy]

Hi Dave,

max values for volume and expression are 127, lowest are 0.

If volume is set to 127 an exp. to 127 the output level is maximum ( 127 )

If volume is set to 64 and expression is set to 127, the output level is 64

If volume and exp. are both set to 64 the output level is 32

So the "volume" is a kind of master, and the expression a kind of slave.

If you set in a midifile the VOLUME to 64 you won´t be able to make it sound louder than these 64, even though you set expression ( for example via foot pedal) to 127

If you set the EXPRESSION to 64 you can make it louder with the expression command

As well some sounds change their sound in dependance to the expression level ( but not to the volume ).

[siebenhirter]

.. I have never seen or heard anything different.

It is different - if one connect a pedal and use it, automatically think controlling of volume is done with them. If pedal set to expression one should know what kind of controller using with pedal - it is Midi-Controller 11, called expression.

There are functions assignable to pedals (also to sliders) like MasterVolume and Expression, where expression is special wired in Pa-keyboards to change realtive volume of all channels of the keyboard sounds and all other channels/sounds will not be varied.

This function is using Control-Changes of controller 11 on some channels and is not the same as controller 7 (Midi-Volume, Main-Volume, Channel-Volume) of one channel.
*
To talk about usage of a pedal, first look what kind of pedal-function one use. If not using "Keyboard Expression" but "MasterVolume" you will hear the difference, you do not change realtive volume of all channels (because that is expression) of the keyboard sounds.
If using "Keyboard Expression", try to set pedal-function to "MasterVolume" and you also will hear, what is expression and what is volume.
*
At long loast - talking about Midi-Volume - that is controller 7.
You will not find a pedal-function of controller 7, because this controller is made to set the channel’s volume in a mix.

So please believe - if pedalfunction is set to controller 11, it is an pedal for expression, good to be used for dynamic indications, whereas using sliders in your mixer is using controller 7 for changing channel-volumes.
**
In SMFs it is possible also to send volume-messages (cc#7) in songs, but it is recommended to send them only at the beginning of a song in order to determine the absolute volume of a channel and to use Expression (cc#11) and velocity (strength) to fix the dynamics of the instrument played on that channel (the relative change in volume).

Maybe a great number of instruments usually will react in same manner to cc07 and cc11, but maybe soundmachine from different manufacturers do not and also change timbre, volume, LFO etc with expression-messages.

[Uncle Dave]

[quote="Snoopy"]Hi Dave,

max values for volume and expression are 127, lowest are 0.

If volume is set to 127 an exp. to 127 the output level is maximum ( 127 )

If volume is set to 64 and expression is set to 127, the output level is 64

If volume and exp. are both set to 64 the output level is 32

So the "volume" is a kind of master, and the expression a kind of slave.

If you set in a midifile the VOLUME to 64 you won´t be able to make it sound louder than these 64, even though you set expression ( for example via foot pedal) to 127

If you set the EXPRESSION to 64 you can make it louder with the expression command

As well some sounds change their sound in dependance to the expression level ( but not to the volume ).[/quote]

Snoop - all good points, thanks. The #7 CC is master and the #11 works within those parameters. So, it's a volume controller ... with tandem limits to the other CC #.
Whatever you call it - an expression pedal will still change the volume of whatever it's assigned to, and that's what's important.

[siebenhirter]

.. #7 CC is master and the #11 works within those parameters. So, it's a volume controller ... with tandem limits to the other CC.
Whatever you call it - an expression pedal will still change the volume of whatever it's assigned to, and that's what's important.

The MIDI Manufacturers Association (MMA) produces the Specifications that make MIDI products work together. Its Specifications define MIDI Messages and Recommended Practices for using MIDI Technology - that is important to understand MIDI-functions.

It is not necessary to use some new terms or designations or to invent what is wrong (#7 CC is master and the #11 works within those parameters - so it is a volume controller ??).

I think that's an easy thing - controller 7 is no master and controller 11 is sending messages independently - if your instruments uses its messages to control volume, it personally is ok to call an expression pedal sending cc11-messages volume controller - instruments using cc11-messages in another manner oder expression-pedals assigned to "VDF Cutoff" or "VDF Resonance" are not volume controller.

By definition Midi-Volume-/ChannelVolume-messages are sent with cc7, expression-messages are sent with cc11 - whatever midi devices will do with them.

[Uncle Dave]

OK, ok ... we're all saying the same thing, pretty much ... with different words.
Define it anyway you like, but at least there are choices for volume change using midi messages. I feel like we're all about to argue, and it's pointless.
My expression pedal controls the volume of my upper 2 sound, so I can bring strings and pads in and out with my main sound ... usually Rhodes, Whurlie or piano.