New to Kronos, had mine for a couple months, learning the basics. I have been using headphones exclusively. Finally decided to insert the Kronos into my setup.
I have never used much eq on keyboards, really never needed to, other than maybe rolling off a little bass or adding a small amount of highs, but the pianos on the Kronos, and especially the orchestral stuff, while sounding great thru the headphones, are much more "mid-rangy" and "muddy" thru my system.
I am using decent equipment, but the 3 band eq on my mixer just won't handle all the frequency issues properly.
Considering a stereo 31-band digital graphic eq to tweak the sound.
Good idea?
Equalizing for live performance
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psionic311
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SanderXpander
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@ psionic311
You wrote: "There is a system-wide EQ accessible on the Set List page. It's not 31 band, but it may be useful enough for you."
The mixer I am using has a sweepable mid range pot - added some 3k- that helped a bit. Shaved some 60 - cleaned up to bottom a bit, and added just a touch of 12k (those are the HF and LF shelves provided) Leaves a lot to be desired!
I looked at the eq on the set list page, but I only saw two choices. One was eq of the slot - the second was the entire set list. I didn't see one that was global. Maybe I missed it. Seems like that might solve the problem. I really don't want to eq individual programs/combis the Kronos. Absolutely love the sounds thru my headphones. Everything is clean and crisp, while being warm and thick or fat sounding at the same time. Great separation when using a combi stacked with piano, strings, acoustic guitars, bells, etc. - Absolutely great sound!
To achieve the "decent" sound I have, I just kept putting on the headphones, playing a passage - then removing them and playing the same passage - tweaking - rinse and repeat.
@SanderXpander
You wrote:
"Also, if you're monitoring in mono (either by hooking up only one cable or by not panning correctly) the Kronos pianos especially lose a lot of their magic."
I think that may well be part of my problem. We are using 2 Yamaha DBR15 powered speakers for mains - I am using a third one as a keyboard monitor. I am running stereo out of the Kronos, into a DI box and stereo thru the snake to the board. Panned left ch left and right ch right - the separation helped a lot!
I am also running the unbalanced out of the DI box in stereo to my on stage mixer. Panned those channels as well, but with only one monitor that didn't do much for me, lol - I can take some solace that the front actually sounds better than my monitor, but I still have to live with the sound I am hearing.
Appreciate both of your answers. This forum is really great. Still thinking that inserting a stereo graphic 'before' the DI box would allow me to tweak for the room/speakers rather than changing the Kronos.
Anyone tried this? Any other ideas would be appreciated.
You wrote: "There is a system-wide EQ accessible on the Set List page. It's not 31 band, but it may be useful enough for you."
The mixer I am using has a sweepable mid range pot - added some 3k- that helped a bit. Shaved some 60 - cleaned up to bottom a bit, and added just a touch of 12k (those are the HF and LF shelves provided) Leaves a lot to be desired!
I looked at the eq on the set list page, but I only saw two choices. One was eq of the slot - the second was the entire set list. I didn't see one that was global. Maybe I missed it. Seems like that might solve the problem. I really don't want to eq individual programs/combis the Kronos. Absolutely love the sounds thru my headphones. Everything is clean and crisp, while being warm and thick or fat sounding at the same time. Great separation when using a combi stacked with piano, strings, acoustic guitars, bells, etc. - Absolutely great sound!
To achieve the "decent" sound I have, I just kept putting on the headphones, playing a passage - then removing them and playing the same passage - tweaking - rinse and repeat.
@SanderXpander
You wrote:
"Also, if you're monitoring in mono (either by hooking up only one cable or by not panning correctly) the Kronos pianos especially lose a lot of their magic."
I think that may well be part of my problem. We are using 2 Yamaha DBR15 powered speakers for mains - I am using a third one as a keyboard monitor. I am running stereo out of the Kronos, into a DI box and stereo thru the snake to the board. Panned left ch left and right ch right - the separation helped a lot!
I am also running the unbalanced out of the DI box in stereo to my on stage mixer. Panned those channels as well, but with only one monitor that didn't do much for me, lol - I can take some solace that the front actually sounds better than my monitor, but I still have to live with the sound I am hearing.
Appreciate both of your answers. This forum is really great. Still thinking that inserting a stereo graphic 'before' the DI box would allow me to tweak for the room/speakers rather than changing the Kronos.
Anyone tried this? Any other ideas would be appreciated.
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SanderXpander
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@SanderXpander:
Thinking the same thing. I have an old 15 band stereo graphic laying around somewhere. Going to hook it up and play with it. (It probably has a S/N ratio of 1:1 lol) A new graphic eq would be cheaper than adding another DBR15, but my sanity is worth something too.
Appreciate the input.
Thinking the same thing. I have an old 15 band stereo graphic laying around somewhere. Going to hook it up and play with it. (It probably has a S/N ratio of 1:1 lol) A new graphic eq would be cheaper than adding another DBR15, but my sanity is worth something too.
Appreciate the input.
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SanderXpander
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If you don't pan your patches too much you can maybe alleviate the issue somewhat by only sending one of the two channels to the monitor. If would pick right (assuming you don't invert your piano) because the bass-heavy left side is less useful on a busy stage. This at least gets rid of the phase canceling that is dulling your piano sound.
Interesting you would mention phase cancelling. I was just sharing with the guitar player this morning how when you initialize a combi all 16 timbres are preset to Berlin Grand but only #1 is set to midi ch 1 - but if you switch #2 to midi ch 1 the sound gets anemic (the phase shifting) That is sort of what is happening. Certain mid range frequencies get weak, lower bands seem kind of mushy or muddy.
I am going to play with a graphic to see if I can tweak it. I believe I read somewhere that setting a stereo graphic eq to opposite curves for the left and right when running into a mono speaker flattens the phasing.
For example you'd run 20hz +3db left and -3db right, then 40hz -3db left and +3db right - etc etc throughout the bands.
I think I am going to end up just buying another DBR15, but it's worth a shot.
I am going to play with a graphic to see if I can tweak it. I believe I read somewhere that setting a stereo graphic eq to opposite curves for the left and right when running into a mono speaker flattens the phasing.
For example you'd run 20hz +3db left and -3db right, then 40hz -3db left and +3db right - etc etc throughout the bands.
I think I am going to end up just buying another DBR15, but it's worth a shot.
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SanderXpander
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Bitflipper
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If you're amplifying keyboards in more than one place, e.g. running to a stage monitor plus the mains, then you're going to want to (mainly) EQ at the source, meaning the Kronos.
Of course, you may still need some EQ on the mixer or amp just because any two dissimilar amplifiers/speakers are going to need some balancing. However, those adjustments should be broad and gentle, no more than a couple dB, in order to minimize phase shifts. The bulk of the equalization should ideally happen at the instrument.
As a footnote, phase shifts aren't really that big a deal in live setups, because of the physical distances between speakers. IOW, the audience will hear little if any of your stage monitor. Phase shifts are only relevant when combining two clearly-audible sources, e.g. two guitar amps side-by-side or stacked. But even if you alone can hear those phase cancellations, it'll hurt your own enjoyment. I always play better when it sounds good!
Unfortunately, that EQ in the Set List view is pretty crude. I have not found it to be very useful, and use it only to roll off a little low end. For the critical pianos, I've had to go into the more precise EQs available as insert effects, and adjust each one for each instrument. It's a PIA, and if I upgrade my amplification I'll have to do it all again. But I've found no better solution.
The ideal solution would be for Korg to replace that Set List equalizer with a proper fully-parametric EQ. (Or even better, add support for VST hosting so I can stick Pro-Q in there, but that's just a pipe dream.)
Oh, and be careful with the complementary EQ trick (inverting left and right settings). That works great on some instruments such as acoustic guitar, but on a piano you could easily end up with notes bouncing back and forth across the panorama and sounding very weird.
Of course, you may still need some EQ on the mixer or amp just because any two dissimilar amplifiers/speakers are going to need some balancing. However, those adjustments should be broad and gentle, no more than a couple dB, in order to minimize phase shifts. The bulk of the equalization should ideally happen at the instrument.
As a footnote, phase shifts aren't really that big a deal in live setups, because of the physical distances between speakers. IOW, the audience will hear little if any of your stage monitor. Phase shifts are only relevant when combining two clearly-audible sources, e.g. two guitar amps side-by-side or stacked. But even if you alone can hear those phase cancellations, it'll hurt your own enjoyment. I always play better when it sounds good!
Unfortunately, that EQ in the Set List view is pretty crude. I have not found it to be very useful, and use it only to roll off a little low end. For the critical pianos, I've had to go into the more precise EQs available as insert effects, and adjust each one for each instrument. It's a PIA, and if I upgrade my amplification I'll have to do it all again. But I've found no better solution.
The ideal solution would be for Korg to replace that Set List equalizer with a proper fully-parametric EQ. (Or even better, add support for VST hosting so I can stick Pro-Q in there, but that's just a pipe dream.)
Oh, and be careful with the complementary EQ trick (inverting left and right settings). That works great on some instruments such as acoustic guitar, but on a piano you could easily end up with notes bouncing back and forth across the panorama and sounding very weird.
@Bitflipper:
#1. Using a Yamaha DBR15 as a keyboard monitor, specifically because we use them on the mains, so "dissimilar amplifiers/speakers" are probably not an issue.
#2. The phase shift SanderExpander and I are referring to is not caused by speaker proximity. You wrote: "Phase shifts are only relevant when combining two clearly-audible sources". I believe that is indeed the issue. As I mentioned in a previous post, if you create a combi using the same piano program in both timbre one and timbre two, you'll get a rather anemic phase shift. I believe the same thing is happening when running right and left channels into mono. The house is running stereo and sounds fine, but by mixing that stereo signal down to mono on stage I think I am getting the same type of phase shift. At least it sounds very similar. I have been able to eq some of the anemia out of the system, and tomorrow I am going to plug in a stereo graphic eq and see if I can tweak it enough to satisfy my ear. I have my doubts.
#3. As for using the SetList eq. That might be an acceptable solution. Since the sound I am getting through the headphones is absolutely great and the small amount of eq required to tweak the house seems sufficient, coupled with the fact that I have never had to eq synths much (always run mono) I tend to blame the problem on the aforementioned phase shift. I could very well be wrong, and am certainly be open to trying other ideas.
#4. You wrote: "..,be careful with the complementary EQ trick (inverting left and right settings). That works great on some instruments such as acoustic guitar, but on a piano you could easily end up with notes bouncing back and forth across the panorama and sounding very weird."
I'll try maybe 3db per band and see what happens. If it doesn't solve the problem, I'll scrap the idea. I really have no idea if it will work. In fact, I am not even sure that is what I read, just something I 'think I remember' reading. I did have some success by just putting on the headphones, playing a passage, taking them off and playing the same passage using the onstage monitor, tweaking the knobs, and repeating the process with a different passage or sound, ad nauseam.
For what it's worth, I have only had my Kronos for 3 months so I have a lot to learn. I'll report back my success or failure. Hopefully this will benefit others running into the same issue. I might add that I just finished reading a thread titled "What are you using for stage amplification?" The general consensus was stereo systems. Gut feeling, I'm going to buying another DBR15.
4God
#1. Using a Yamaha DBR15 as a keyboard monitor, specifically because we use them on the mains, so "dissimilar amplifiers/speakers" are probably not an issue.
#2. The phase shift SanderExpander and I are referring to is not caused by speaker proximity. You wrote: "Phase shifts are only relevant when combining two clearly-audible sources". I believe that is indeed the issue. As I mentioned in a previous post, if you create a combi using the same piano program in both timbre one and timbre two, you'll get a rather anemic phase shift. I believe the same thing is happening when running right and left channels into mono. The house is running stereo and sounds fine, but by mixing that stereo signal down to mono on stage I think I am getting the same type of phase shift. At least it sounds very similar. I have been able to eq some of the anemia out of the system, and tomorrow I am going to plug in a stereo graphic eq and see if I can tweak it enough to satisfy my ear. I have my doubts.
#3. As for using the SetList eq. That might be an acceptable solution. Since the sound I am getting through the headphones is absolutely great and the small amount of eq required to tweak the house seems sufficient, coupled with the fact that I have never had to eq synths much (always run mono) I tend to blame the problem on the aforementioned phase shift. I could very well be wrong, and am certainly be open to trying other ideas.
#4. You wrote: "..,be careful with the complementary EQ trick (inverting left and right settings). That works great on some instruments such as acoustic guitar, but on a piano you could easily end up with notes bouncing back and forth across the panorama and sounding very weird."
I'll try maybe 3db per band and see what happens. If it doesn't solve the problem, I'll scrap the idea. I really have no idea if it will work. In fact, I am not even sure that is what I read, just something I 'think I remember' reading. I did have some success by just putting on the headphones, playing a passage, taking them off and playing the same passage using the onstage monitor, tweaking the knobs, and repeating the process with a different passage or sound, ad nauseam.
For what it's worth, I have only had my Kronos for 3 months so I have a lot to learn. I'll report back my success or failure. Hopefully this will benefit others running into the same issue. I might add that I just finished reading a thread titled "What are you using for stage amplification?" The general consensus was stereo systems. Gut feeling, I'm going to buying another DBR15.
4God
I monitor through Mackie 2/DLM-12, and a DLM12S sub. Stereo is my preferred monitoring.
If it sounds great through the headphones, then it should sound great through your live performance system. If it does not, the problem is in the live monitoring. Go stereo, ensure you have a full-range system, keep monitoring speakers relatively close, but not too close, ~5-10 foot from your ears. The room can have a big impact also, best tactic is to lower the over-all sound levels, but that maybe hard with a drummer and guitar players. Most speakers become beamy at high volumes, making there positions extremely important. Beamy Speakers are dull sounding off axis, and overly bright head on (pointing straight at you.) These issues plague most keyboard amplification systems, the full spectrum sound of modern keys requires lots of power and possible eq balancing to compensate for room issues. The best solution is lower the volume, the second best solutions is in-ear monitoring. Last thing is to just give in to the system and room deficiencies. Good luck and remember rules are to be learned, then broken. What's best for your situation may not be best for another.
If it sounds great through the headphones, then it should sound great through your live performance system. If it does not, the problem is in the live monitoring. Go stereo, ensure you have a full-range system, keep monitoring speakers relatively close, but not too close, ~5-10 foot from your ears. The room can have a big impact also, best tactic is to lower the over-all sound levels, but that maybe hard with a drummer and guitar players. Most speakers become beamy at high volumes, making there positions extremely important. Beamy Speakers are dull sounding off axis, and overly bright head on (pointing straight at you.) These issues plague most keyboard amplification systems, the full spectrum sound of modern keys requires lots of power and possible eq balancing to compensate for room issues. The best solution is lower the volume, the second best solutions is in-ear monitoring. Last thing is to just give in to the system and room deficiencies. Good luck and remember rules are to be learned, then broken. What's best for your situation may not be best for another.
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SanderXpander
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I think Bit is correct about the phase shift, what we were talking about is phase cancellation through mono summing. He's saying EQ introduces phase shift and may have unforeseen consequences in this particular setup. This is however the case with any EQing (except for linear phase which introduces latency and the Kronos doesn't offer it anyway) and the Kronos presets are rife with EQ. I wouldn't worry too much about it. Either it sounds good or it doesn't.
Btw I agree with JPWC, but only partly - the best solution is to lower volume and monitor in stereo. If lowering the volume is not an option and you don't want to bring two monitors, I would heartily recommend going in-ear over going mono.
Btw I agree with JPWC, but only partly - the best solution is to lower volume and monitor in stereo. If lowering the volume is not an option and you don't want to bring two monitors, I would heartily recommend going in-ear over going mono.
After a couple hours of frustration I am officially giving up on trying to eq the problems caused by trying to run mono. If anyone has managed to overcome the issue, you have either a better ear, more technical expertise, or more patience than I.
Spoke with several engineers who basically said "you can make it better, but stereo is the way to go", which is the consensus on this forum as well.
Set of Yamaha DBR10's on the way. Learned a lot wrestling with the concepts though. Thanks to everyone for the input.
Spoke with several engineers who basically said "you can make it better, but stereo is the way to go", which is the consensus on this forum as well.
Set of Yamaha DBR10's on the way. Learned a lot wrestling with the concepts though. Thanks to everyone for the input.
Replaced my Yamaha DBR 15 mono cabinet with a pair of Yamaha DBR 10's. Solved the problem very nicely. Lost a bit of bottom, but as these are only monitors and I get a significant amount of bass from being behind the house speakers, it is really no problem. Pianos are much better, orchestral sounds are really good too. I have these speakers on stands allowing them to pivot. Still playing with exact angle, height, distance.
Also toying with the pan. We found that panning hard left and rt on the mains didn't work well. It actually gave too much separation. Audience on the right, lost the left and vvs. Ended up with about 45 degree pan - gave a good sense of separation. On stage however, hard rt and left pan seems to work the best. I have the speakers about 6 ft apart and pointing slightly towards me.
I really appreciate all the ideas everyone shared. This board is the bomb diggity!
Also toying with the pan. We found that panning hard left and rt on the mains didn't work well. It actually gave too much separation. Audience on the right, lost the left and vvs. Ended up with about 45 degree pan - gave a good sense of separation. On stage however, hard rt and left pan seems to work the best. I have the speakers about 6 ft apart and pointing slightly towards me.
I really appreciate all the ideas everyone shared. This board is the bomb diggity!