Big Bug and very important functions missing. Please update

[karmathanever]

I now take it that these guys are just Trolling and they have no intention of doing anything other than moan on threads about the OS.

WOAH!!!

Firstly, this is a free, independent and open forum for all Korg enthusiasts to air their views, concerns and assistance.
Although the forums are NOT associated with Korg, we do know that Korg does view them.
We have created sticky topics in a vague attempt to (hopefully) assist Korg identifying bugs etc and also to express desires for the future.

Members have a right to "moan" (as you actually moan about it above) and often identify important issues when doing so.

Trolls and aggravators are not tolerated.

If there is a bug then those who think that there is should raise a bug report directly with Korg.

Please provide offical details on how to formally do this.... country by country would be useful.........

....and guys - please let's keep this topic "calm" - thanks

Peace
Pete

[BR]

I now take it that these guys are just Trolling and they have no intention of doing anything other than moan on threads about the OS.

WOAH!!!

Firstly, this is a free, independent and open forum for all Korg enthusiasts to air their views, concerns and assistance.
Although the forums are NOT associated with Korg, we do know that Korg does view them.
We have created sticky topics in a vague attempt to (hopefully) assist Korg identifying bugs etc and also to express desires for the future.

Members have a right to "moan" (as you actually moan about it above) and often identify important issues when doing so.


Trolls and aggravators are not tolerated.

If there is a bug then those who think that there is should raise a bug report directly with Korg.

Please provide offical details on how to formally do this.... country by country would be useful.........

....and guys - please let's keep this topic "calm" - thanks

Peace
Pete

Agreed.

[Biggles]

I now take it that these guys are just Trolling and they have no intention of doing anything other than moan on threads about the OS.

WOAH!!!

Firstly, this is a free, independent and open forum for all Korg enthusiasts to air their views, concerns and assistance.
Although the forums are NOT associated with Korg, we do know that Korg does view them.
We have created sticky topics in a vague attempt to (hopefully) assist Korg identifying bugs etc and also to express desires for the future.

Members have a right to "moan" (as you actually moan about it above) and often identify important issues when doing so.

Trolls and aggravators are not tolerated.

If there is a bug then those who think that there is should raise a bug report directly with Korg.

Please provide offical details on how to formally do this.... country by country would be useful.........

....and guys - please let's keep this topic "calm" - thanks

Peace
Pete

Next time there is a contentious post bemoaning the operating system look which member is at the centre of it.

The person has been advised to raise a bug report (Google it in your own Country and it should be there) on more than one occasion yet fails to do so.

So yeah repeated moaning is Trolling in my book.

[siebenhirter]

.... repeated moaning is Trolling in my book.

Trolling rather are ridiculous blown-up opinions on other users in forum rather than to deal with an actual issue. Issue here can not be to spread bad opinion about other individuals - if you have solutions to actual issues - present them instead of blaspheming about people.

Concerning styleToKbdSet remember first message thread was opened with the complaint as follows:

... Big BUG!!!! When I select a song in the songbook, it changes the sound I'm using in the keyboard set, which completely spoils the passage from one song to another. I need the option for not doing that (like pa3x) the button Style to KBD Set It's supposed to do that in songbook too. I have already researched forums and there are many complaints about these topics.
KORG engineers Please make an update where we can have these options. They are really very important. I'm korg's lover but there are options that exist in previous versions that we can not miss. thank you

This complaint I support because this is not about setting a defined starting point for the next song, but switching to next sb-entry of songbook with changing style, without interruption KbdSet of running song but with soft transition in case StyleToKbdset = Off, made for this.

.. basic idea behind the SongBook is that you always start from a song. By choosing an Entry from the SongBook, you choose a template for that song ... Pads and Keyboard Sets will also be recalled. Keyboard Set #1 will be selected ...

Ok, would accept the basic idea behind a sb to start from a song, and also that kbdSet#1 will be selected. But using SetList with next / previouse functions or using direct access of setlist-buttons also is made to select sb-entries when running song without stopping in, canceling and newly initialized with a template to start initialized always with kbdSet.

As mentioned above, complaint of Marco not affects the start of a song - but soft transition to the next sb-entry as we had already, but can not be done with Pa4x function StyleToKbdSet = off.

This also is one way of understanding the Songbook.

[Marco Filipe]

Again, this is one way of understanding the Songbook.
The other one is to be sure that the whole keyboard is initialized for a song, despite the position of pannel buttons.
This is definitely not a bug, but a choice from Korg engineers.

387/5000
My friend, this is simple. a keyboard that is the top of the range of korg can not be limited to having fewer options that its previous version.
A good keyboard in my opinion wins by having more options and not less.
We are here trying to fight for our interests as clients and give our opinion as users and you come to do the devil's lawyer ... oh my god. You are not well.

[karmathanever]

My friend, this is simple. a keyboard that is the top of the range of korg can not be limited to having fewer options that its previous version.

"B.Safe" is merely and correctly pointing out that the PA4X is not an upgraded PA3X and that the OS is new.
There are differences of course due to the new design.
There is a learning curve and also work to do if you are bringing your data from a previous model.

SONGBOOK is the heart of the new OS hence the other changes. I think you will find that it actually has many more options than before. PA4X is not a version of the PA3X and predecessors.

Many of us have come from the earlier models so please let us know if you need some help with it.

Cheers

Pete

[B.Safe]

This complaint I support because this is not about setting a defined starting point for the next song, but switching to next sb-entry of songbook with changing style, without interruption KbdSet of running song but with soft transition in case StyleToKbdset = Off, made for this.

I can understand this type of keyboard use even if, when I navigate from one style to another without changing the KeyboardSet, I don't need Songbook. I'm just changing the style. The way Korg responded to your need with the Lock function in the global settings suits me well because it does not prevent the keyboard from being completely initialized with a Songbook input. The solution you proposed on the other hand (taking into account the button on the panel for the Songbook) poses a problem that does not bother you but that bothers other musicians, including me, hence my position.
For the record, I had proposed another solution to answer your request by adding an option in the Songbook entries to decide what to do with the panel button, a proposal you had never followed up on.

Ok, would accept the basic idea behind a sb to start from a song, and also that kbdSet#1 will be selected. But using SetList with next / previouse functions or using direct access of setlist-buttons also is made to select sb-entries when running song without stopping in, canceling and newly initialized with a template to start initialized always with kbdSet.

As mentioned above, complaint of Marco not affects the start of a song - but soft transition to the next sb-entry as we had already, but can not be done with Pa4x function StyleToKbdSet = off.

This also is one way of understanding the Songbook.

Why not, you can also use the keyboard like that and it doesn't bother me as long as you don't ask for a change that disrupts the way to play described in the manual.

"B.Safe" is merely and correctly pointing out that the PA4X is not an upgraded PA3X and that the OS is new.
There are differences of course due to the new design.
There is a learning curve and also work to do if you are bringing your data from a previous model.

I would only add that this is even more true when the way of playing that no longer works in the new version was not described in the manual and if I'm not mistaken, Korg never described that one can make smooth transitions between songs in the songbook. Maybe in the PA5X

[siebenhirter]

.. SONGBOOK is the heart of the new OS ..

To be honest, songbook was the heart also long before the new OS and before SingleTouch was renamed to StyleToKbd, but new is its reduced functionality, that now to do same with setting ON and OFF in sb-mode.

Also it often could been seen Pa4x published as predecessor of Pa3x - thus the tip surprises me that it should not be thus. Maybe that argument is used in case some good features can not be used with Pa4x in same manner, because there is no compatibility to previous Pa-generation, because newly designed in the new flagship, bad badly in case of the option renamed StyleToKbdSet.

It also is surprising in this thread, why twenty postings are necessary until the problem is understood here, although was exactly described in the first posting. Also songbook is heart of OS very long time, it is made to be used also with different types of entry (mid, sty, mp3) - also is made not only to be newly started exactly with a new song.

It also is made for the type of keyboard use, to navigate from one style to another without changing KbdSet. You also need songbook and not just change the style in case preparatory a sequence with styles in an order like only is possible with songbook. It is not done by just changing the style.

Also SetList function not only is made for one type of entry type. After numerous complaints Korg made an update with "Lock KbdSet" - against the numerous arguments similar to war against it which were also begun here. This update was made because to partially repair mistakes made when designed StyleToKbd.

When this lock is closed, the four currently selected Keyboard Sets are preserved, when choosing a different Style or SongBook Entry.

Maybe this function in the global settings suits one well because it does not prevent the keyboard from being completely initialized with a Songbook input. Though has the advantage one can change sb-entry while running song without kbdReset to kbdSet#1, but also has the disadvantage afterwards one cannot use any more KbdSets#1-4 of new style, because closed and lock-function is not accessible directly. Function better should freeze recent kbdset when sb-entry is changed, but does preserve all of the four currently selected kbdSets - a compromise, however, no really satisfactory solution.

OK - maybe issue now is to understand, even if one always kbdSet#1 needed independently whether styleToKbd is set to ON or OFF.
Please, prevent arguments for which Songbook was made more than fifteen years ago and is now - the intended purpose has not changed.

Also need no separate describtion in manual that songbook could make smooth transitions between songs in the songbook. Nevertheless, this is natural, because Songbook also is described with "Your entire show will be under your fingers, with immediate access to any Style, Song and Sounds needed for your performance" and that really is not to realize in running sessions without soft transitions, when always abrupting by setting of KbdSet#1. Both options should be solved satisfied - however, these is not yet.
*
Now to be personally - absolutely nothing deals with problems or issues around Pa-Keyboards, but here it is placed over and over again, instead of to be objective.
Argument one should own exactly a certain device to be entitled to discuss here - let it be, stay polite. Often have the feeling, one sometimes does not understand here what is discussed of instrument one use - although of course is no disgrace.

.. Give the numbers of posts you have made on limitations of the Operating system just how many have you actually reported to Korg and how many have resulted in actions being taken by Korg? ..

For it I am guilty to you no account - but if it calms you, each limitation was announced first to Korg support of my country. But Korg is not the primary problem, but users that obviously use a small part of the available options for modest applications to understand, but fight again each complaint in principle. Looking for trolls here not only to point the finger at others, but also examine the situation on your own home turf.
**

.. this is simple. a keyboard that is the top of the range of korg can not be limited to having fewer options that its previous version.
We are here trying to fight for our interests as clients and give our opinion as users and you come to do the devil's lawyer ... oh my god. You are not well.

Really, hits the nail right on the head.

[B.Safe]

.. this is simple. a keyboard that is the top of the range of korg can not be limited to having fewer options that its previous version.
We are here trying to fight for our interests as clients and give our opinion as users and you come to do the devil's lawyer ... oh my god. You are not well.

Really, hits the nail right on the head.

It is clearly with this kind of position that any evolution of a keyboard becomes impossible.
Let me explain: everyone will find a particular way to use their keyboard and consider it the right one.
Then, if it no longer works the same way in the next version, it is described as a regression.

I also use my keyboard beyond what is described in the manual, but in this case, instead of saying that it is a "Big Bug" when the operation changes in the next version, I try to understand the direction that Korg wanted to take and I adapt my playing style.
In most cases, after a short period of adaptation, I realize that the new direction taken brings me advantages.
Indeed, it is often the consideration of the needs of many users that is at the origin of the evolution.

I say all this without any animosity of course.
And I don't have any shares in Korg either.

[siebenhirter]

.. is clearly with this kind of position that any evolution of a keyboard becomes impossible ... if it no longer works the same way in the next version, it is described as a regression ..

No - that is not true. Evolution really is something other as a regression to limit features and functions we had almost and was made to expand possibilities of applications and options.

Missing to play along sb-entries of type "Style" without to get unwanted interruptions by automatically settings auf kbdset#1 really are no evolutions but regressions, because it prevents to play with songspecific styles. Disturbing runnig songs by sb-selections and its interruptions really is no evolution but a destruction of an already available solution by a mistake in the software design.

Also if you don't have any shares in Korg either - what I have not subordinated - it seems to be a contrived argument how to cover and justify the inadequacy of the disturbance of a running song by an automatic change of the kbdSet.

We need freedom to every user to make it in such a way as he would want it - and this already we had before function SingleTouch was decimated and called StyleToKbdSet. This freedom was taken - past all reason, not inevitably.

If it helps counting peas I am ready not to say it is a "Big Bug" and for you once I call it a heavy mistake in design of StyleToKbdSet, because starting and initializing a song with a template also is possible with KbdSet#1, parallel without RUNNING SONGS WITH ENTRY-TYPE "STYLE" NEVER SHOULD BE INITIALIZED WITH KBDSET#1 IN CASE OF STYLEtoKBDSET IS OFF.

I also use my keyboard beyond what is described in the manual "choosing a Style might automatically choose Keyboard Sounds. This depends on the STYLE TO KBD SET indicator (KBD SET = Keyboard Set)".

Using a running session I DO NOT START FROM A SONG - maybe that is not the basic idea behind a sb - but SO IT IS NOT TO SET TO KBDSET#1 IN CASE OF STYLEtoKBDSET = OFF.

Now again remember me that this is no way of understanding the Songbook, but a choice from Korg engineers and therefore is no bug.

In any case, big things with the function StyleToKbdSet have been messed up here - no good choice from Korg engeneers as you think (also without any animosity of course).

So please think about RUNNING SONGS WITH ENTRY-TYPE "STYLE" NEVER SHOULD BE INITIALIZED WITH KBDSET#1 IN CASE OF STYLEtoKBDSET IS OFF.

.. Korg never described that one can make smooth transitions between songs in the songbook. Maybe in the PA5X ..

... also is no need to describe in manuals that smooth transition automatically occurs in case KbdSet do not change in a running song of entry-type "style". Need not Pa5x, almost had in previous models since years with proper function SingleTouch

[karmathanever]

I am not going to get involved in any of the conversations in this mixed up topic, but this needs to be pointed out:-

• Respectfully, to existing, new or potential PA4X owners reading this topic and who may be confused, I want to point out that several different issues have emerged in this topic coupled with some inaccurate and misleading comments.
  
  So, to those people, if you have any specific issues or questions, please post them clearly and separately and we'll help with a solution where possible.

Cheers

Pete

[Guyske]

Indeed Pete.

[B.Safe]

... I want to point out that several different issues have emerged in this topic coupled with some inaccurate and misleading comments...

You're right, and I'm sorry to have my share of responsibility for this confusion. So, I stop arguing because I think my position has been sufficiently clarified for those who want to understand.

[siebenhirter]

.. Respectfully, to existing, new or potential PA4X owners reading this topic and who may be confused, I want to point out that several different issues have emerged in this topic coupled with some inaccurate and misleading comments. ..

Hallo Pete,
I would not call this topic as mixed up, also several different issues that have emerged here also in future itself will not let avoid.
However, it is polite I think nobody must apologise if he thinks having a portion of responsibility for a confusion.
A topic like this, for example, is typical for contradicting opinion which originate alone from it if the keyboard is used in different kind.

With an sb-entry always to start from a song choosing a template or with an sb-entry to carry out a passage from one song to another - this are different kinds of use, from those, however, a multifunctional instrument offers a big number.

Position of "start from a song" choosing a template was not necessary to clarify, because understandable. Position to use sb-entry with entry-type style to carry out a passage from one song to another without interruption apparently was badly understood, although was defined unambiguously in first posting from Marco.

To discuss what kind of use would be the right way is pointless, since the freedom must remain granted, to use all options thus in every any kind instead of limiting to one option.

If it is important on the one hand after an sb-entry to start with kbdSet#1 and, on the other hand, after an sb-entry is as important not to disturb a passage in a running song with changed kbdSets, then it equal is concerned to be considered as expected for both.
Starting a song - basic idea behind the sb - and automatically always use kbdset#1 independent if StyleToKbdSet is off or on is no contradiction to selecting an sb-entry in a running song without automatically set another kbdSet when StyleToKbdSet is off!

Furthermore it is pointless to fight concerning this against others - or to try to persuade the other, to use the instrument in such a way as one carries out it - or to become insulting personally.
Better would be to help each other, mutually to understand if an instrument is not used in such a way, as it corresponds to the personal predilection.
*
As already mentioned, complaint of Marco not affects the start of a song - but missing soft transition with current kbdSet to the next sb-entry as we already had with entry-type style, but can no more be done with Pa4x function StyleToKbdSet = off made also for this entry-type, for setList function etc. It should not be stated this perfectly will meet the needs of the vast majority of users, since, besides, the question to majorities is not relevant in this case, but - not to forget - to find a satisfactory answer respectfully towards the questioner in first posting of the thread.

[Korghelper]

One of the issues of an English forum for an internationally used device is the imprecision of terms. A little understanding can go a long way from those who prefer the dictionary definition of words like 'bug'.

For someone who speaks Italian, or Serbian, or Vietnamese, the difference between a bug and a 'poorly designed change in standard operation' can be difficult to express in English!

The truth is, it honestly doesn't MATTER if a problem is described as one or the other. BOTH need addressing by the manufacturer, ASAP.

But problems with OS changes, retrograde decisions and the like need to be filtered through the lens of what percentage of users they impact. If one person posts endlessly about an issue but few join in, it is hard to expect the manufacturer to spend a lot of money to address the issue. If the poster prefers the old way of doing things, the older arranger still exists.

I've had my share of baying at the moon with few joining in. And understood the unlikeliness of my particular issue being addressed! Perhaps some of us finding themselves equally isolated could show a little understanding..? The truth of it is, seldom in life do you find yourself making several steps forward with not a single step back. If the step backwards is significant to the majority, it usually gets addressed. If not, it is better for your karma to just shrug it off and work around the issue, or go back to the old gear if deal-breaking.

Who knows..? Maybe the next few steps forward will include a solution for your problem that infuriates someone else! That is the most likely scenario!