Chord Recognition on Pa4X

[BR]

My Pa4X (Style mode) does not show/display correctly chord C11, it shows C9 instead.
The notes that I play for C11 are (C,E,G Bb,D,F).

But when I play Cm11 (C,Eb,G,Bb,D,F), it shows/displays it correctly.
My chord recognition mode is set to Advance.

Could someone please check on its Pa4X?
Just curious, I maybe miss something.

Thanks

[looo]

My Pa4X (Style mode) does not show/display correctly chord C11, it shows C9 instead.
The notes that I play for C11 are (C,E,G Bb,D,F).

But when I play Cm11 (C,Eb,G,Bb,D,F), it shows/displays it correctly.
My chord recognition mode is set to Advance.

Could someone please check on its Pa4X?
Just curious, I maybe miss something.

Thanks

Same thing here.
I can not also hear any difference in styles sound between assumed C11 (C,E,G Bb,D,F) and C9 so Pa4 seems not to recognize it.

BTW Another noted asymmetry (in Expert chord recognition mode with Bass invertion=ON) is that you can play for example C/Bb chord (without 7th)! by holding C+Bb while there's no chance to play Cm/Bb.

[karmathanever]

Yep - same here and what is more weird is that the Cm11 does NOT work when you switch to UPPER scanning
If you switch to full keyboard scanning the Cm11 only works where your LOWER would be!!

Hmmmmm EDIT: The International Arranger Chord-Recognition Organisation has obviously made a policy here as my CASIO MZ-X500 does exactly the same.

Cheers

Pete

[jeanloop]

Referring to page 1111 of the manual (recognized chords), 11 is not a recognized tension for a dominant 7th chord.

Cm11 is recognized, in the upper zone, with Split = Off or On and Chord Scan = Upper (Chord Recognition = Advanced or Fingered 3) on my PA4X ???
(Cm11 recognized if you play C,Eb,F,G,Bb,D or C,D,Eb,F,G,Bb but not if you play C,Eb,G,Bb,D,F)

[BR]

Referring to page 1111 of the manual (recognized chords), 11 is not a recognized tension for a dominant 7th chord.

Cm11 is recognized, in the upper zone, with Split = Off or On and Chord Scan = Upper (Chord Recognition = Advanced or Fingered 3) on my PA4X ???
(Cm11 recognized if you play C,Eb,F,G,Bb,D or C,D,Eb,F,G,Bb but not if you play C,Eb,G,Bb,D,F)

In my case as I mentioned when I play Cm11 root chord (C,Eb,G,Bb,D,F), it shows/displays it correctly.
Split= ON or OFF
Chord Recognition= Advanced

[jeanloop]

You are right.

If I press all the notes at the same time or if I press the notes from highest to lowest, the chord is recognized.

It doesn't work if I press notes from low to high.

[Aripearlmusic]

Put an octave between the Cm and the Bb and you get Cm/Bb

[looo]

Put an octave between the Cm and the Bb and you get Cm/Bb

...and i get Cm7/Bb that's not the same.

[Aripearlmusic]

Play the Cm first then add the Bb an octave down

[looo]

Play the Cm first then add the Bb an octave down

My Pa4 clearly indicates Cm7/Bb that"s quite logical. Does your keyboard really show Cm/Bb?

[jeanloop]

For clarity :
If you play C4 Eb4 G4 then press Bb3 PA display 'Cm7/Bb'
If you play C4 Eb4 G4 then press Bb2 or Bb1 PA display 'Cm/Bb'

[looo]

For clarity :
If you play C4 Eb4 G4 then press Bb3 PA display 'Cm7/Bb'
If you play C4 Eb4 G4 then press Bb2 or Bb1 PA display 'Cm/Bb'

Well, it does work only if "Upper Chord scan" is activated. I omitted your mentioning upper zone in a message above as use only "classic" setup (left hand - chords, right - solos) in which Cm/Bb is unavailable unlike C/Bb.
Guess i should have formulated initial conditions more strictly to prevent misunderstanding.

Anyway thanks for info!

[AntonySharmman]

My Pa4X (Style mode) does not show/display correctly chord C11, it shows C9 instead

- This is indeed a KorgPa recognition bug commonly known for over 20 years that should had been addressed !
Actual C11 contains among natural triad dominant 7th , 9th & 11th (sus4 at octave) , so if you play all 6 notes C0,E0,G0,Bb,D1,F1 chord recognition ignores F1 (11th)
recognizes up to 9th and chord is shown as C9 although 11th exists !
Same happens with C13 where also required 11th is ignored if you play the right sequence of 7 notes in series ( for proper C13 fingering see bellow).
The only way to force Pa engine recognizing C11 is to use 11th an octave lower as sus4 with notes sequence C0,D0,F0,Bb0 that is recognized as C9sus but style
plays the official C11 chord (if style is programmed correctly in CVs).
- Cm11 is implemented as C0,Eb0,F0,G0,Bb0,D1 but you can omit D1 and play Cm11 with only left hand and is recognized as Cm7(add11)

Bellow you can see how I play some complex jazz chords using only left hand and are recognized by engine correctly and in some of them fingers can be badly tighten
and might look totally weird for pianists technique , but we have to do some compromises when playing an arranger !

C7-9 => C1, Db1, E1, G1, Bb1
C7+9 => C1, Eb1, E1, G1, Bb1 (good for organ track)
C13 => E0, A0, Bb0, D1 (the only right way)
C13-9 => E0, A0, Bb0, C1, D#1 (the only right way)
C7+11 => C1, F#1, G1, Bb1
CMaj7+11 => C1, E1, F#1, G1, B1

Hope this helps

[jeanloop]

To complete a little on Rootless Chords, for those who do not know:

Page 209 of manual, for 'advanced' chord recognition , it is said :
"With this mode, you can play rootless and slashed chords, often
used in jazz, fusion or modern pop. You don’t always need to play
the root note, that would otherwise double the note already played
by the bassist."

So:

Im9 -> 3b, 7b, 9 (eb, bb, d -> Cm9)

I6/9 -> 3, 6, 9 (e, a, d -> C6/9)

I9 -> 3, 7b, 9 (e, bb, d -> C9)

I13 -> 3, 6, 7, 9 (e, a, bb, d -> C13)

I7(add13) -> 7b, 3, 6 (bb, e, a -> C7(add13) )

Im9 -> 7b, 9, 3b (bb, d, eb -> Cm9)

So for a classic II V I in C, with Bill Evans 1 or A fingering and with very close fingerings on the PA:
Degree -> fingering A -> fingering on PA -> Chords
II -> f, a, c, e -> f, c, e -> Dm9
V -> f, a, b, e -> f, b, e -> G7(add 13)
I -> e, g, a, d -> e, a, d -> C6/9

For Bill Evans 2 or B fingering:
Degree -> fingering B -> fingering on PA -> Chords
II -> c, e, f, a -> c, e, f -> Dm9
V -> b, e, f, a -> b, e, f, a -> G13
I -> b, c, e, g -> b, c, e, g -> CM7 (not rootless)

(If you play with Style Stop and with 'Bass & Lower Backing': On and 'Bass Inversion': Off, you can hear the bass playing the correct root)

[BR]

- This is indeed a KorgPa recognition bug commonly known for over 20 years that should had been addressed !
Actual C11 contains among natural triad dominant 7th , 9th & 11th (sus4 at octave) , so if you play all 6 notes C0,E0,G0,Bb,D1,F1 chord recognition ignores F1 (11th)
recognizes up to 9th and chord is shown as C9 although 11th exists !
Same happens with C13 where also required 11th is ignored if you play the right sequence of 7 notes in series ( for proper C13 fingering see bellow).
The only way to force Pa engine recognizing C11 is to use 11th an octave lower as sus4 with notes sequence C0,D0,F0,Bb0 that is recognized as C9sus but style
plays the official C11 chord (if style is programmed correctly in CVs).
- Cm11 is implemented as C0,Eb0,F0,G0,Bb0,D1 but you can omit D1 and play Cm11 with only left hand and is recognized as Cm7(add11)

Bellow you can see how I play some complex jazz chords using only left hand and are recognized by engine correctly and in some of them fingers can be badly tighten
and might look totally weird for pianists technique , but we have to do some compromises when playing an arranger !

C7-9 => C1, Db1, E1, G1, Bb1
C7+9 => C1, Eb1, E1, G1, Bb1 (good for organ track)
C13 => E0, A0, Bb0, D1 (the only right way)
C13-9 => E0, A0, Bb0, C1, D#1 (the only right way)
C7+11 => C1, F#1, G1, Bb1
CMaj7+11 => C1, E1, F#1, G1, B1

Hope this helps

Thanks Antony for clarification.