Kronos 3 expected Launch

[Gwendal]

Korg did release the Nautilus because they stopped working with the Copyright owners of the Karma. So for legal reasons Korg could not sell any Kronos anymore.

That's completely not true. I would have been happy to continue working with Korg to put KARMA in their keyboards. They chose not to continue to use it.

They could have put it in the Nautilus if they had wanted to. It was not up to me.

From what I understand, they could no longer get the parts to continue to make the Kronos without completely redesigning it.

My english is maybe not correct: I'm french.

When I write "Korg stopped working with the Copright owners of the Karma", it does not mean "The copyright owners of the Karma has decided to stop working with Korg".
It is crystal clear in french and won't create any confusion. It seems it is not clear in english.

That's the difference between speaking well a foreign language and speaking fluenty like a native

So I was not in the room when Korg announced it to you, but YES, the Nautilus has been created by Korg because they did not have the legal right anymore to sell Kronos cause they have a Karma inside. And you confirm it was not created as a real full project, but as a quick and dirty replacement.

[StephenKay]

So I was not in the room when Korg announced it to you, but YES, the Nautilus has been created by Korg because they did not have the legal right anymore to sell Kronos cause they have a Karma inside. And you confirm it was not created as a real full project, but as a quick and dirty replacement.

But you're still wrong. Korg's license to KARMA allowed them to continue to use it as long as they wanted to. There was no "legal right" that they no longer had.

They could have said "we are not planning to use it in any keyboards moving forwards" and still had the right to sell Kronos forever. I hope you understand this difference.

[Gwendal]

So I was not in the room when Korg announced it to you, but YES, the Nautilus has been created by Korg because they did not have the legal right anymore to sell Kronos cause they have a Karma inside. And you confirm it was not created as a real full project, but as a quick and dirty replacement.

But you're still wrong. Korg's license to KARMA allowed them to continue to use it as long as they wanted to. There was no "legal right" that they no longer had.

They could have said "we are not planning to use it in any keyboards moving forwards" and still had the right to sell Kronos forever. I hope you understand this difference.

Oooh that's interesting.
Because I had a different version from people close to Korg.

So if I understand Korg had (and still has) a permanent unlimited licence for Karma, and would not have paid any money in regards of new unit of Kronos produced/sold, or new model of keyboard using Karma.

I was told, from two different sources that are professionnals and working with Korg, that Korg had no right to use Karma in any new product thus forcing the quick and dirty creation of the Nautilus.

If the licence was given, but Korg had to pay some fees regarding the number of units sold using Karma, it may be a confusion between "not having the right" and "not wanting to pay anymore" from those who told me this.
Else, if it is an unlimited licence without any fees to pay back in regard of unit produced, I wonder where the misunderstanding came from.

The story behind the creation of this poor Nautilus becomes darker and darker

[Koekepan]

My completely uninformed outsider's view (but I have dealt with a lot of product design questions in other contexts):

KORG didn't want to keep doing Kronos. They could have had many reasons; trouble with maintenance, a desire to change strategy, a desire to put money elsewhere, a hope that they could get a higher margin on a cut-down product with the sheen of the prior flagship. Who knows? They do, and we don't.

If they were looking for margin, that would explain simpler construction (fewer controls), fewer licensed items (no Karma), cheaper keybed. As for people who wanted a Kronos? Most of them probably have one, or might get one secondhand, or will go elsewhere. If they're not selling as much any more, KORG has less reason to keep the line going. They can offer something cheaper as a stopgap while they pivot to MicroWaveLog or whatever.

There is no reason to believe (that I can see) that they intend to maintain their supremacy in the workstation market, there is no reason to believe that they have anything big up their sleeves for the near future as far as keyboard workstations are concerned, and given that the Big Three tend to echo each other's behaviour a lot and both Yamaha and Roland have basically given up on workstations, there's ample industry reason to believe that KORG doesn't want to do this any more. They're just sunsetting the line, and offering the Nautilus as a terminal product.

If I were in the market for a brand new keyboard workstation, I'd go for Kurzweil. If I were in the market for a studio master, well ... I actually already bought an Akai Professional Force. If I were looking for a performance keyboard built for non-western scales, Casio rules the roost. KORG is an also-ran now, and they chose to be one. I don't see how this could be anything other than a deliberate product management choice on their part.

They just don't want it any more.

[JonSolo]

Guys, you DO know who Stephen Kay is right????

[StephenKay]

So if I understand Korg had (and still has) a permanent unlimited licence for Karma, and would not have paid any money in regards of new unit of Kronos produced/sold, or new model of keyboard using Karma.

I was told, from two different sources that are professionnals and working with Korg, that Korg had no right to use Karma in any new product thus forcing the quick and dirty creation of the Nautilus.

In case you're not aware, I invented KARMA, licensed it to Korg, and worked with them to implement it in the Karma Workstation, then Oasys, then M3, and then Kronos.

So I know what was in the license.

Yes, they had to pay me a royalty for each unit of product incorporating KARMA. But they could have continued that as long as they wanted. There was no "legal right" that was terminated preventing them from doing so. According to the license, I could not have prevented them from doing so provided they paid the royalty, had I even wanted to - which I didn't.

Now, it's quite likely they didn't want to continue to pay me. They could have put it into the Nautilus, there was nothing preventing them from doing so, other than the fact that they would have had to pay a per unit royalty same as all the previous products incorporating KARMA. Or they just wanted to go in a different direction.

Again, I believe it was impossible to keep manufacturing the Kronos as it was because of parts sourcing issues. So they decided to make a new keyboard with newer parts, and to stop paying to include KARMA in it. But again, there was nothing related to their right to use KARMA preventing them from doing so.

It makes it sound like I had something to do with it, which is completely wrong.

[average_male]

In case you're not aware, I invented KARMA, licensed it to Korg, and worked with them to implement it in the Karma Workstation, then Oasys, then M3, and then Kronos.

What about the Triton series, I take it that was the first instance of Karma in a Korg keyboard? By chance to you have any talks or other videos covering your journey creating and implementing Karma or even what work you have done for this on Windows or Mac? I would love to get any insight into this as I really find this technology fascinating. If not, a couple of insights posted here would be amazing to read.

[voip]

Visit the Karma-lab forum:

https://forums.karma-lab.com/forum/index.php

.

[StephenKay]

What about the Triton series, I take it that was the first instance of Karma in a Korg keyboard? By chance to you have any talks or other videos covering your journey creating and implementing Karma or even what work you have done for this on Windows or Mac? I would love to get any insight into this as I really find this technology fascinating. If not, a couple of insights posted here would be amazing to read.

No, the Triton series never had KARMA. I made a software program that "added" the KARMA functions of the Karma Workstation to it (as long as were using the software) but it didn't have it inside. The Karma Workstation was the first product, and it came after the Triton.

As someone mentioned, you can find a lot of info on KARMA at karma-lab.com. You can also find any available videos at karma-lab.com/youtube. Much of this stuff is pretty old, but it's still relevant.

[average_male]

No, the Triton series never had KARMA. I made a software program that "added" the KARMA functions of the Karma Workstation to it (as long as were using the software) but it didn't have it inside. The Karma Workstation was the first product, and it came after the Triton.

Hi Stephen, I appreciate the info and the links. I guess the Wikipedia entry may be a little misleading as it states this:

"The Korg KARMA music workstation was released in 2001 as a specialised member of the Korg Triton family." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korg_KARMA]

Guess the operative word here is, "family" and not "series" but regardless, you are correct Karma wasn't in a Triton board.

Thanks again.

[update]
Dang Stephen, just watched your YouTube video presenting KRAMA features on the M3. It isn't enough you have invented KARAMA, but did a very professional job in doing all the PR and marketing for it too. All these years, I never knew what KARAMA stood for, awesome that you embedded your name in the acronym, nice!

[petr14]

I have to admit that I have never understood Karma. Maybe it's because I grew up on PaXXX and have a good understanding of auto-backing units and styles and that's preventing me from understanding Karma. I wanted a simple thing after Karma, to change the drum track while playing live. Nothing complicated, intro, one variation, one filler and ending. I haven't figured out how to do it. As a result, I was disappointed with Kronos.

[petr14]

auto-backing units

accompaniment units

[Gwendal]

Do you know I have invented the Karma and I inow what was in the contract?

Yes, it is written in big in your signature.
And yes I did notice it.

But it would be nice if in your turn you take the time to really read what people write.

I have clearly written that the confusion of the professionnals close to Korg may have been a commercial language shortcut between "not having the right to use karma anymore" and "not wanting to pay royalties to karma anymore".

And I ask you about the way your licence /royalties where done (per unit sold, a fixed amount, percentage of margin,..) because yes, royalties per unit could explain the confusion.

Nowhere I wrote that I knew what was in the contract better than you.

So I am clearly stating my sources where incorrect and I'm trying to understand where did the confusion came from, since I clearly state that your are a more trusted source on the subject than them, and I do not doubt my contacts where sincere.
In.addition, they told me the same while not working in the same company.

So...No irony, no second degree, no claim to be the one to have the truth.
When I start my answer by "oh it is interesting", yes it means "oh it is interesting" not "oh I do not agree".

It seems my sources do not have the monopoly of wrong interpretation

I won't do any joke about you being as complicated as the karma ...but yes, I strongly thought about doing it.

More seriously I am sad things went that way between you and Korg.
And I'm sad the Nautilus was a quick and dirty replacement of the kronos and not a full 64bits new generation workstation.[/u]

[StephenKay]

But it would be nice if in your turn you take the time to really read what people write.

I believe that I did.

But in any case, I hope you now understand that I had nothing to do with Korg's decision to stop making the Kronos.

There was no change to the licensing terms, or their right to continue to use KARMA.

More seriously I am sad things went that way between you and Korg.
And I'm sad the Nautilus was a quick and dirty replacement of the kronos and not a full 64bits new generation workstation.

I agree with you there.

[Gwendal]

But it would be nice if in your turn you take the time to really read what people write.

I believe that I did.

But in any case, I hope you now understand that I had nothing to do with Korg's decision to stop making the Kronos.

There was no change to the licensing terms, or their right to continue to use KARMA.

More seriously I am sad things went that way between you and Korg.
And I'm sad the Nautilus was a quick and dirty replacement of the kronos and not a full 64bits new generation workstation.

I agree with you there.

Nowhere I wrote you were the one who decided to stop working with korg.
Anyway...we agree on the conclusion.

I wonder if the solution is to wait for Korg or to create my own musical instrument brand.