How to change or mute a track in just one of the variations?

[rikkisbears]

Hi siebenhirter,
your method sounds interesting, I’ll definitely check it out. For the future.
Only problem at the moment is , it involves Songbook.
Songbook currently has bugs.
Any style that has instrument changes in the variations , fills etc, songbook plays the original instrument assigned to a track in all the style tracks. ie
In style play, the drum track in Intro 1 is JazzKit , vari 1 Brush Kit. Works perfectly , plays back correctly.
But in Song Book , Intro 1 Jazz Kit , Vari 1 will also play Jazz kit instead of Brush Kit. Jazz Kit is kit assigned to all the drum tracks in the style.
You can end up with piano track being played by a flute.
Hence I use, user styles for songbook at the moment. Basically just using it to locate the user styles for my Baume Songbook Software.
Hopefully gets fixed in next update.

[laurentm6]

Hello all,

No way to mute one track for one variation and not for the others. Same for volume, linked to style.
Best solution i found is to modify expression, wich can be adjusted for each variation

PS: sorry for my poor english !!

[siebenhirter]

... in Song Book ... Jazz Kit is kit assigned to all the drum tracks in the style .. .

Hello rickisbears,
thank you for your tips - I was a bit hasty with my posting and mistakes happened to me.

Originally writing a songbook entry will use the original styles sounds for the tracks of its style elements. But you are right , that changing of style tracks sound in songbook entries will assign the changed sound to each variation/element - and I made a big mistake there.

Maybe also your songbook currently has no bugs - I apologize for that mistake, where I got confused Songbook entries of Direct Sets (Drives in group stripes of Pa5x) with Songbook entries residing in memory:

In case of using songbook entry for changing different sounds for a specified style track (maybe drum track) of an element, the specified style tracks of each style element get that changed sound. So if using "noLevel" for a drumtrack and choose the "Save Book Entry" command from the page menu to save the settings into a SongBook Entry, each elements (variation, fill, end ..) drumtrack would get "noLevel".

But that is not a great misfortune, because that would not happen with "noLevel" sounds which have already been assigned beforehand, i.e. during style editing and not subsequently with editing the songbook entries.

That is - as you mentioned - style variations, that has different assigned sounds (via style record/edit) plays back correctly - also will playback with "noLevel" sounds assigned.

"noLevel" sounds have to be assigned during style editing and not subsequently with the songbook entries. Therefore, for muting tracks a user style is necessary, unless using styles with direct access (Drives in group stripes of Pa5x) to custom elements read directly from an external storage device.
*

.. No way to mute one track for one variation and not for the others. Same for volume, linked to style.
Best solution i found is to modify expression, wich can be adjusted for each variation :-) .....

Modification with expression is recommended for different volumes of the variation/elements, but there are also ways to mute tracks for one variation and not for the others; the best method for me has worked is to assign the "noLevel" sound in Record/Edit Style.

[AntonySharmman]

there are also ways to mute tracks for one variation and not for the others; the best method for me has worked is to assign the "noLevel" sound in Record/Edit Style.

Expression is by definition the best method for anything you like to do with muting and preserve all midi events in the track.
But this costs polyphony so the next step is to delete events if finally proved unused for permanent use.

If you want to use instead a sound with no polyphony cost , then the proper way is to create one OSC sound , called as empty
use in both velocity elements ROM empty sound 1424 something , and this way if this sound will replace track sound then no sound
will be heard and also no polyphony cost will happen with existing midi events , it will work fine but still a silly thing to do ...

[siebenhirter]

.. the best method for anything you like to do with muting ...

To mute specific track in Var is done with Style Edit > Menu > Element Track Controls > Expression pressing variation button and setting specific var track expression zero "0".

The effort for this is not more with the assignment of an empty sound, but will not reduce main polyphony and why you get no sound with such quasi-muted variations track seem less mysterious, but documented because tracks sound named with "noLevel".

I prefer that silly thing since such tracks of a variation again will be activated, its track expression value was not lost, but immediately ready for operation with events as originally programmed.

[rikkisbears]

Hi siebenhirter,
basically my concern at the moment is that Songbook has bugs , according to others that have used Songbook in their prior Korgs. I never used it before, only reason now I need it for my iPad app Songbook plus. So for time being I’ll just keep doing User styles.

I use my PA5x to play styles and melody voices on my sx900, so not ideal having both keyboards play melody voice at same time. I came up with a solution ,but it’s complex midi setup involving both keyboards

Thinking your” no level sound “might give me an easier alternative .

Meanwhile I’ll try and work out what you 2 guys are debating .

[siebenhirter]

... my concern at the moment is that Songbook has bugs .... .

Instead a songbook entry use an user style with "record style" and assign a "noLevel" sound to a track of that variation you want to mute - and dont forget to "Write" that style to be to be effective when playing.

I use my PA5x to play styles and melody voices on my sx900, so not ideal having both keyboards play melody voice at same time. I came up with a solution but it’s complex midi setup involving both keyboards ...

Seems rather this is more of a normal, quiet common midi solution, if more than one device is used.

If your SX900 should play the sequences of Pa5x styles, it will be necessary to change some sounds in the style editor for some tracks of your style variations, so that they sound on the SX900 as they do on the Pa5x or as individually intended.

If you want to optionally mute a track on the SX900 for a single variation, you therefore need a sound without a level on the SX900, whereby its program number (MSB / LSB / PC) must be used in the style tracks of that variations of your styles, that are to be muted. That is because to save a mute status for only one variation is not possible.

.. I’ll try and work out what you 2 guys are debating ...

We both inform which method of muting the track of a style variation we prefer. It's about how to make the sound of such a track silent, because the mute status for this cannot be saved differently for single elements. Antony prefers the usual way by definition to set such tracks expression to zero and I prefer to assign a silent sound program to the track, without to change any other events of this style track.

[AntonySharmman]

I will repeat it again ... silent sound is a sound which will waste polyphony , no sound SOUND creation is the proper solution to be compared
with expression valid solution and I have also explained of how to create such a sound !

[siebenhirter]

I will repeat it again ... silent sound is a sound which will waste polyphony , no sound SOUND creation is the proper solution to be compared with expression valid solution and I have also explained of how to create such a sound !

So we both agree to achieve a quasi-muting for the track of just one variation of a style, as i have always practiced with a sound named "noLevel" with different models of Pa-arrangers.

The multisample you used for the Pa5x with the number 1424 is, for example, the number 996 for the Pa1000, number 830 for Pa3x, number 421 for the Pa500 etc ....

With that multisamples for each model it always been possible to create a sound for muting tracks without wasting polyphony - regardless of whether the created sound will be called "empty" or "noLevel".

[rikkisbears]

Hi siebenhirter

I really only use the PA5x to trigger chords for sx900, I don’t try and play sx900 style tracks using PA5x voices. There’s currently no master track , so can’t put in my own bank and program changes.
I just enjoy playing 88 note keyboard vs synth action on my sx900, I doubt I would try and replace style track sounds, gets too complicated.

But, for playing melody , the no level voice might work really well for me.
I’m guessing that if it can be programmed for a PA5x voice , it probably could also be programmed for an sx900 voice.
Hoping it may freely allow me to choose whether to use the sx900 voices melody, or use the PA5x voices when playing sx900 styles.
I can currently do that, but means swapping between 2 sets of midi set ups and it gets complicated, so most of the time I just use the sx900 voices. ( great to be able to use Antony’s CFX grand piano with my sx900 styles)
I will let you know how I go.


Thank you, you are both debating on best method to mute a track in a style ie expression vs a silent sound. I shall give both a try, I enjoy learning new things. I may give up deleting tracks.

[AntonySharmman]

Rikki
- Only a Style creator from scratch as me would had a reason to keep note events in a specific track with a zero expression and
only temporarily until he will decide if he will use events that he had created and this has a meaning as I had explained a while ago.
- For the rest that copy or modify factory Style elements , there is no reason at all to keep data in tracks that they don't need
they definitely must erase the whole track and not to bother with any of above that are theoretical and wasting of time.
- Blank ROM positions are very useful for advanced sound modeling when using DNC automation where actual OSC is not needed.
- Generally a whole SOUND without any active OSC creation is useful only if you play 2 styles in sync in both Pa5X & SX900 where
some tracks play in Pa5X , the rest in SX900 and you create 2 new styles in every arranger where this blank Sound will replace the
sounds you want to be silent , although again expression is still a better option or for me deleting the whole track is the best.
But if both arrangers have the same kind of style , Pa5X will be for sure superior and better sounding so the whole concept in this
case is a nonsense for me ...
- The only case I can approve is to remote SX900 in case that a Style exists only in SX900 and in that case you can create a whole
Blank Style in Pa5X with initial program change of SX900 Style's number , name it with the Style's name in SX900 and attach in
it KBD SET & PADS from Pa5X setting keyboards midi routing.
This is the method I use for 20 years with arrangers in multi channel midi connections with other keyboards and DAW.


Hope this helps

[rikkisbears]

Rikki
- Only a Style creator from scratch as me would had a reason to keep note events in a specific track with a zero expression and
only temporarily until he will decide if he will use events that he had created and this has a meaning as I had explained a while ago.

Thanks Antony,
Checked it out, and for me, I agree that deleting a track completely is the best way to do things. I always have a copy of the original style anyway.

The blank sound has worked out really well for me.
Created one for PA5x and one for SX900.
My midi setup for the PA5x and one for the sx900 is so simple now.
Created a registration with “ no sound voices” for the 4 melody voices on the sx900 ,when I want to use PA5X voices.
And when I want to use the sx900 voices for melody, I can use another registration or use the OTS setting to bring the sx900 voices back.
On PA5x I just need to choose keyboard set with “ no sound voices”.

The PA5x to me also sound better than the sx900 and I always try to find a PA5x style first. There are a few styles I really like on the Yamaha though, that Korg doesn’t really have the equivalent of.
The Korg ballads are more modern sounding , that’s why I delete tracks to make them sound less modern and more simple..

- The only case I can approve is to remote SX900 in case that a Style exists only in SX900 and in that case you can create a whole
Blank Style in Pa5X

with initial program change of SX900 Style's number ,
name it with the Style's name in SX900
and attach in it KBD SET & PADS from Pa5X setting keyboards midi routing.


This is the method I use for 20 years with arrangers in multi channel midi connections with other keyboards and DAW.

Hope this helps

Hi Antony,
I’m not sure I fully understand what you’re suggesting.

I want to use a specific sx900 style .
So I create a blank PA5x style.

It’s the next part I don’t fully understand ie
where to put program change
and how to attach kbd set and pads etc

Are you basically saying I can create a dummy style on PA5x and it will pick correct style for me in sx900. Or is my imagination running wild.

[AntonySharmman]

Are you basically saying I can create a dummy style on PA5x and it will pick correct style for me in sx900. Or is my imagination running wild.

Yep , this is the correct term "dummy style" , you can create one for SA900 remote purpose , set the relative tempo , copy 4 factory or custom KBD Set
you want in this Style , also create 4 PADS if needed and then save this style with the name of SX900 Style with no note events.

You can also create a SX900 style program change at Pa5X drum track initial 1.00.00 position in midi remote state and every time this dummy Style
is selected also SX900 targeting style will be selected and will be controlled by Pa5X but you have to make also some solo sound modifications in
SX900 Style in order to disable existing solo sound combinations there , mostly via midi routing between 2 arrangers.

[siebenhirter]

.. Only a Style creator from scratch as me would had a reason to keep note events in a specific track with a zero expression and only temporarily until he will decide if he will use events that he had created and this has a meaning as I had explained a while ago.
- For the rest that copy or modify factory Style elements , there is no reason at all to keep data in tracks that they don't need they definitely must erase the whole track and not to bother with any of above that are theoretical and wasting of time.

Also Hobbyists that copy / modify style elements have their reasons to keep data in tracks. As Original Poster Danster72 mentioned:

... although I won't need it for the style I've been modifying now but may be useful in future when I will need to.

So they must not erase the whole track. It does not waste time simply to edit a noLevel sound with empty multisounds for both velocity elements. For Pa5x that is - as you mentioned - multisound 1424 for muting tracks without wasting polyphony. Same empty multisound exists for each model of Pa-arrangers ( nr 996/830/421 .. for Pa1000/Pa3x/Pa500 ..) and seems to be more sensible to use them, than to delete tracks for a specific variation of a style, that should only be muted for this element.

.. use the PA5x to trigger chords for sx900, I don’t try and play sx900 style tracks using PA5x voices. There’s currently no master track, so can’t put in my own bank and program changes. I just enjoy playing 88 note keyboard vs synth action on my sx900, I doubt I would try and replace style track sounds, gets too complicated...

In case of tracks set to external, each track (also of styles) can be used with MSB/LSB/PC for sound selection.

As far as realizing the remote control of other midi devices with the styles of the Pa5x initially has nothing to do with muting tracks, but mainly with the Midi settings. This requires specific information that describes exactly in which direction (receive/transmit) and what kind of Midi events you intend to transport via the Midi interface.
Only when this has been clarified in a comprehensible manner, it should be considered whether and for which tracks muting would be necessary.

[rikkisbears]

Yep , this is the correct term "dummy style" , you can create one for SA900 remote purpose , set the relative tempo , copy 4 factory or custom KBD Set
you want in this Style , also create 4 PADS if needed and then save this style with the name of SX900 Style with no note events.

You can also create a SX900 style program change at Pa5X drum track initial 1.00.00 position in midi remote state and every time this dummy Style
is selected also SX900 targeting style will be selected and will be controlled by Pa5X but you have to make also some solo sound modifications in
SX900 Style in order to disable existing solo sound combinations there , mostly via midi routing between 2 arrangers.

Thank you Antony, I shall check into that.