Pairing the Kronos with sound modules

[pete.m]

I've had my Kronos for about 12 years now, and during that time have hooked up quite a number of sound modules to it - I can think of seven or eight, from various manufacturers. What frustrates me is the variation in performance I get, and I'm just wondering whether other users have the same problems.

Sometimes, the sound module won't recall its settings properly when I start, or else loses them every time my song ends. Sometimes, the sounds will change or the volume of certain tracks won't stay the same, or control changes that worked before won't work now. the problems tend to be random, rather than predictable and repeatable. I think the only one that has been 100% reliable has been my Kodamo Essence FM2.

I do know how to use the various sound modules properly, and I don't think I'm getting anything wrong with the Kronos, because everything works fine much of the time. The modules vary from 2000 from 2022, and so I guess that the standard of MIDI implementation may have improved during that time. Do any of you experience similar problems? Do you have any idea why it might be happening? Is it just a quirk of MIDI?

[voip]

How are the Kronos to sound module connections made, and how is the sound module audio routed?

Quite often, in the studio here, a number of different sound modules may be connected to the Kronos MIDI Out via a MIDI switch. Their MIDI Outs are also routed back to the Kronos MIDI In, again via the MIDI switch. The modules might typically include things like a Radias rack, Novation Supernova II, EMU Proteus 2000, and a Wavestate original, together with Omnisphere running on a Windows laptop and driven via USB MIDI from the Kronos. Additional tone generators might include devices like the Korg M1, Wavestation EX, and Korg M50. Stereo pairs from these might typically pass to a Behringer RX1602 mixer, and thence to a digital audio recording device, though the setup can vary, depending on musical requirements.

With this type of setup, I am not to aware of any real issues, apart from the EMU Proteus 2k not booting up, if it is powered up whilst the Kronos is already booted up, and the MIDI switch to the EMU is enabled. The modules are set up to ignore Program change messages, although the Wavestate doesn't have provision to ignore these. I think I have occasionally noticed changes to the Timbral tonality from the Novation Supernova, usually after using Karma, but re-selecting the particular Performance of Program on the Supernova resets the Timbre, and all is good.

It's worth being aware that the Kronos can send out a stream of MIDI clock and device ID messages, and also send other MIDI messages when a Program, Combi Setlist slot or Song are selected, depending if those are configured to do so. The Kronos will also send out CC# messages whenever the joystick, vector joystick, and other control surface changes are made. These can be filtered out in the Kronos Global settings.

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[pete.m]

Hi voip,

That's kind of you to reply. I like to keep my set-up very minimal, nearly always just using one sound module plus the Kronos per piece. I'll have another module racked up but switched off, and I'll swap it all out for different modules from time to time, whenever I do a periodic clean out of my studio and feel like using something different. All the audio is fed into a Behringer X32 Rack mixer, but I don't bother with the MIDI on that, and I never bother with MIDI on the external effects that I sometimes use for Aux FX on the mixer. I use Quadra Thru and Quadra Merge boxes from Midi Solutions (both 4:1 or 1:4) to connect things up.

I've used a couple of the modules you mention - the Proteus 2000 and the Supernova II - and also (amongst other things) the Kodamo Essence FM, Waldorf Blofeld, Novation KS Rack, Access Virus and Mutable Instruments Ambika. Those last two were particularly bad.

I do leave Program Changes enabled, and it's interesting to read about the other stuff that the Kronos streams out. I've regularly checked the Event Edit page when I've had problems, but have never noticed anything untoward. I wonder if I should try doing some filtering to make sure.

Those occasional problems with your Supernova sound like the sort of problems I had, but I figured that maybe the year of manufacture might have meant that the MIDI implementation wasn't quite as thorough then as it would be now.

The obvious thing to suggest is that it's something either Kronos- or Midi Solutions-related, given that they're the only constants in all of my set-ups, but I really can't see what it might be. I'm considering treating myself to a more expensive module at the moment, but I'm holding off in case I won't be able to use it to its full potential because of this issue.

[HardSync]

Sometimes, the sound module won't recall its settings properly when I start, or else loses them every time my song ends. Sometimes, the sounds will change or the volume of certain tracks won't stay the same, or control changes that worked before won't work now. the problems tend to be random, rather than predictable and repeatable. I think the only one that has been 100% reliable has been my Kodamo Essence FM2.

I think we all have had frustrations with MIDI-connected gear over the years -- there is always something that happens that we didn't expect. I'd be super surprised if anyone didn't have issues at one point or another.

You don't say for certain, but I assume you're using the Kronos's sequencer to control your modules as part of your performance/song creation, since you mentioned tracks. If my assumption is wrong, you can ignore the rest of this post probably. You also haven't mentioned what sort of settings your modules are not recalling -- this will be good info to know actually. I don't know if any of this will be helpful, but let's start with some general stuff to be aware of, and perhaps some techniques to consider.

Maybe you are already doing this, but my first suggestion is to start with a few blank measures in your song/sequence and into those measures record the relevant settings to send out to your module(s) at the start of your song. Things like program changes and CC volume settings (see below re volume). Alternatively, at the very least, record those settings a few measures at any point in the song before the sequencer begins to send note data to the module. But also know that if you try to start playback from some place later in the song, those settings won't be transmitted to your module. (In the "old days" of limited patch memory, I used to send out patch data sysex dumps to my synths at the start of my songs.)

When your song ends, it will go back to the default state of the song and "reset" everything to how it was at the start, including bank/program numbers and volume settings per the tracks' settings. This caught me out a few times. I seem to recall having trouble re-assigning a track's default or initial program number after I had already recorded any data to any track. It was as if the sequencer had stored a snapshot of the entire 16 tracks' worth of initial settings and wouldn't let me permanently change EXT tracks to anything else. I forget how I solved that to be honest. But it was annoying and every time my song reset, the program number would change back to A001 or whatever else I had selected.

If the module's program is changing after the end of a song, it's because the Kronos is transmitting a program change based on the bank/program number in the track that is sending data to the module when the song resets. As voip said, it will send this info when you first select a song too. This will happen even if you have recorded a program change somewhere in the song as mentioned above. You can of course filter out program change messages full stop in Global (useful for troubleshooting!) or even using the MIDI filters page of a song (Seq page P3-1), but then that might not be desirable in some circumstances. Particularly if you decide to record program changes for your modules as mentioned previously. One thing you can also do is ensure that bank/program no. of your track matches that on your module's desired program. In other words, set a Kronos program number in your track that will call up the right program on your module -- don't leave the track set to A-001. If your track parameter is set to EXT, don't worry it won't play the Kronos's internal program. You're just using the Kronos program as a reference here to send out a bank/program change. If that's not quite working, you can also mess around with an EX2 setting to set a bank number with a MSB/LSB, but I've haven't needed to do that... yet.

Also note that the Kronos will send out Volume CC messages to your modules based on the initial volume settings of a track. If you change the track volume midway through a song and record that, when the song resets, it will go back to what it was initially before the changes were recorded. Again, if you jump to a later point in a song and start playback, it won't pick up any volume changes you made.

If you are recording using KARMA at any point, it might be sending out any number of MIDI CC messages which could alter your module's settings. Depends on the module of course. You can filter out all CC messages on the P3 MIDI Filter 3 page -- again, handy for troubleshooting. Also, my preference is to record KARMA data directly into a track instead of keeping KARMA active during playback.

One last thing to ensure is that you don't have unwanted duplicate MIDI channels on different tracks.

And from the Parameter Guide, this is what the Kronos transmits per track when a song is selected or ends/resets:

When the song changes, tracks whose track Status
is EXT, EX2 or BTH will transmit Bank Select,
Program Change, Volume, Pan, Portamento, Send1,
2, Post IFX Pan, and Post IFX send 1, 2 messages on
their respective MIDI channel

Any of those things could be altering settings in your modules that have nothing to do with the names. You'll have to refer to the MIDI implementation charts for the Kronos and your modules to suss out what's what.

Anyway, this is just a few things I've learned when dealing with Korg's sequencer and getting unexpected results from other connected synths. And some of it I figured out when I looked at the data being transmitted in a program like MIDI-OX. When in doubt, filter out everything you know you don't need, and then filter out the stuff you think you need to see if that's causing the problem.

[pete.m]

Hi HardSync,

Thanks for such a comprehensive reply. There's a lot of useful stuff in there.

You're right - I am talking about being in Sequencer mode.

The reason I didn't mention specific problems is because of the random nature of them over the course of several years, although certain units seem to have been more prone to certain issues than others. It's a while since I owned it, but as an example the Proteus 2000 seemed more stable using EXT2 instead of just EXT, but still caused other problems. The Ambika was completely unreliable, and had to go early on. Generally, I've always just matched program numbers on the Kronos to any other module, and that's been fine.

What also makes it hard to be specific is that it's often random things that happen just once. For example, I've been using my Waldorf Blofeld again recently. It had worked well on a couple of pieces, but for the next one it did something I hadn't come across before. The piece I made involved making a new sound on the Blofeld, which I saved correctly and was able to play back properly a couple of times. Returning to the song a couple of weeks later, the sound had changed and the Blofeld channels were coming out at a lower volume. The next piece I did with it has been fine. This sort of thing has happened with other modules, so I don't think it's a problem with the Blofeld itself.

In my previous post, I mentioned that an obvious conclusion to draw is that it must be a problem with the Kronos or the Midi Solution units but, thinking about it, that doesn't explain why my Kodamo essence FM has always functioned perfectly. If there is an ultimate answer to it, I suspect that it may have something to do with different manufacturers employing different methods and standards to their MIDI implementation over a long-ish period of time, so that the MIDI standard isn't quite as standardised as it should be.

With those things in mind, your (and voip's) suggestions about filtering start to look more important. That's definitely something that I haven't properly looked at, and your suggestion for starting each piece with blank measures and inserting various settings also looks like something I need to do. I do remember doing it when one module wasn't reproducing as it should, but that was a while ago and I haven't kept it up with other modules. I really do need to investigate those two avenues. I also like your suggestion for recording with Karma.

Thanks again for your helpful advice.

[HardSync]

You're welcome.

I think all of the important MIDI controller spec stuff is fairly well standardized, things like pitch bend, mod wheel/joystick, volume, damper, etc., as per the MIDI 1.0 spec. The Blofeld's MIDI implementation spec is quite involved, allowing control of practically every parameter. The Blofeld's spec does differ from Korg's CC assignments in many places. For instance, the filter control CCs are not quite the same. On the Kronos, the ribbon controller sends out CC #16. On the Blofeld, CC 16 controls the LFO 1 Speed.

My gut feeling is that the something on Kronos is sending out a CC that alters the settings on your Blofeld. It could be the effect sends CCs, or it might be the vector joystick, or who knows really. Perhaps some essentially random CC was sent during song playback to the Blofeld and you saved that Blofeld patch after the song had stopped? And because these weird things don't happen all the time, it's going to be difficult to trace what the cause is.

I think it's often worthwhile comparing the MIDI implementations between any two synths, especially when things go awry. The Blofeld manual has an excellent chart starting on page 113. Korg has a useful chart in the Parameter Guide starting on page 1117 "MIDI transmission from KRONOS controllers". But earlier pages cover things in more detail. I do get that it's a pain in the bum to spend time working out all of this stuff when all you want to do is make music. Kind of comes with the territory, sadly.

As for KARMA, if you are using it to trigger the Blofeld, you can also filter out some of the CC's that KARMA generates on the KARMA MIDI Filter/CC Offset screen.

[pete.m]

Hi HardSync,

Thanks for another helpful reply.

I bought my Blofeld second-hand, and it came with bits of the manual - but not the technical stuff at the end. I've now downloaded and printed off those bits, and I'm going to investigate them more closely. As you say, it's a pain to have to get forensic about this kind of thing when you want to be making music, but then again it's much more painful to make a piece and then have it rendered unusable for reasons you can't fathom. So I think your way has got to be for the best. Besides, it's likely that I'm always going to be working with MIDI in some or other way, so I need to up my game.

I'm beginning to appreciate the way that the Kodamo is laid out, with its MIDI learn etc - something the older modules never had.

Thanks also for that additional Karma tip.

I really appreciate the help.

[Mike Conway]

I do leave Program Changes enabled, and it's interesting to read about the other stuff that the Kronos streams out.

Yes, I think Kronos sends some sort of MIDI reset at the end of a song. It would usually change the program on my Virus TI to something other than I was using. To solve this, I would insert a Program Change. at the start of the song, for each of my modules (usually Virus and a couple of Deepminds, sometimes more).

I usually use EXT 2, as well. I set Global MIDI to Control Change, instead of sysex, to better control external gear (volume, panning).

[CliveJ]

Try turning off Kronos sysex transmission. It used to do some strange things to my HydraSynth

[ronnfigg]

I've had my Kronos for about 12 years now, and during that time have hooked up quite a number of sound modules to it - I can think of seven or eight, from various manufacturers. What frustrates me is the variation in performance I get, and I'm just wondering whether other users have the same problems.

Sometimes, the sound module won't recall its settings properly when I start, or else loses them every time my song ends. Sometimes, the sounds will change or the volume of certain tracks won't stay the same, or control changes that worked before won't work now. the problems tend to be random, rather than predictable and repeatable. I think the only one that has been 100% reliable has been my Kodamo Essence FM2.

I do know how to use the various sound modules properly, and I don't think I'm getting anything wrong with the Kronos, because everything works fine much of the time. The modules vary from 2000 from 2022, and so I guess that the standard of MIDI implementation may have improved during that time. Do any of you experience similar problems? Do you have any idea why it might be happening? Is it just a quirk of MIDI?

Are you taking advantage of the Kronos MIDI filters. My Kronos was sending a rogue CC to my Behringer DeepMind 12 that would lower the volume of the DeepMind. I filtered everything BUT the Program Change messages and that fixed it. The Kronos is a great master controller.

[SeedyLee]

This is something that got me for a long time too. There's a little known setting in Global that affects the way the Kronos sequencer behaves in this regard.

Under Global -> MIDI, there's an option titled "SEQ MIDI Out Setup". When set to the default of "For Master", the sequencer will send reset messages for program change and certain continuous controllers (not all!) when restarting the sequencer. This can have the unfortunate side effect of reseting certain external modules to an undesirable state.

By contrast, the "For External Seq" option does not send these reset messages. The parameter guide states:

Choose this option if you’re using Sequencer mode as an external multi-timbral sound module. When you switch songs on the KRONOS, no track whose Status is set to EXT or BTH (i.e., any setting other than INT) will transmit MIDI messages* such as program changes. This prevents echo-back from the tracks of your external MIDI sequencer from overwriting the program and other parameters of tracks that are set to the same MIDI channel.

* Applicable MIDI messages and corresponding parameters:
• Program Select: CC#00 bank select (LSB), CC#32 bank select (MSB), program change
• V olume: CC#7 volume
• Pan: CC#10 pan
• Portamento: CC#65 portamento On/Off, CC#5 portamento time
• Send 1/2: CC#93 send 1 level, CC#91 send 2 level
• (Post FX) Pan: CC#8 post insert effect pan

I find using the "For External Seq" setting, and including the CC and PC messages that I want to explicitly change in my sequence itself (based on the individual sound module's design) to give more control and cater for the behaviour of individual modules.[/quote]

[pete.m]

Thanks for all these helpful suggestions. There are several things in there that I've not investigated before.

I'm going to work back the recent piece that became screwed up for some mysterious reason, and start picking away at sysex, filtering and Global Midi settings to see what happens. Even if I can't get the songs back where they were, I feel sure that I can take much better control of my pieces in future.

I really appreciate everyone's help.

[SeedyLee]

If it helps - I didn't find any of this stuff any easier with computer based DAWs!

[HardSync]

There's a little known setting in Global that affects the way the Kronos sequencer behaves in this regard.

Under Global -> MIDI, there's an option titled "SEQ MIDI Out Setup". When set to the default of "For Master", the sequencer will send reset messages for program change and certain continuous controllers (not all!) when restarting the sequencer. This can have the unfortunate side effect of reseting certain external modules to an undesirable state.

This is probably the best tip of them all so far. Thanks for bringing it up, SeedyLee. I had completely forgotten about that setting and I think it's how I solved the sequencer reset issues I was having years ago. If anyone makes this setting change and it works out for you, don't forget to Write/Save your Global settings, otherwise it will revert to the former selection on your next power up, I think.

I can't bear working with DAWs, but probably not for the usual reasons others have [insert long-winded pointless rant here]. I really do prefer dedicated hardware sequencers over computer-based software ones. The first hardware/keyboard sequencer I ever used was on a friend's Yamaha V50 synth - quirky but functional. A short time later, I got a Korg M1, a Roland MC-300 sequencer and a Roland R5 drum machine. I spent many long years sequencing on all three with those small screens. These days I use Roland MC-50 and a Beatstep Pro in conjunction with the Korg on-board sequencer, all connected to far too much gear. Heck, I'm still using a JL Cooper MSB+ midi patchbay, although I do have a small Mio for my USB synths. I did attempt to switch over to DAWs a few times, but it didn't take. I'm comfortable with my old-school ways I guess.

[ChrisDuncan]

Hey, Pete.

I've only controlled two things with the Kronos. One is a Roland JV 2080, which has been rock solid. The other is a Fantom 7, which was completely unreliable and frequently lost its mind.

First, as Clive mentioned, I turned off SysEx transmission as it wasn't needed for my use case.

However, the ultimate solution was in the midi filters. In the case of the Fantom it wasn't a particular message freaking it out. Rather, it was just the sheer volume of messages that the Kronos was throwing at it that brought it to its knees.

So, I went through the tedious task of unchecking all the boxes in three pages of midi filters, with the exception of what I actually needed (volume, mod, etc.). And that did the trick.

Having spent a non-trivial amount of money on Roland's latest flagship workstation I was less than impressed by their weak midi implementation. Apparently the data or processing pipe is small enough that it's easily overrun. And yet, my 30 year old 2080 rocks on without so much as a whimper.

Anyway, I thought I'd throw that out as one more path to explore. In addition to specific messages mucking up the works, you might find that some sound modules just can't handle the volume. Should that be the case, dialing it back via the midi filters can help, since you may not need every single one of those boxes checked.

Hope this helps.