Create custom drum kits with Round Robin

[fatih89]

To be clear , I'm under vacation for over one month , and I have not deeply explored the changes in OS v.1.3 regarding importing
SF2 & other formats so I will only mention status under OS v.1.21

OK genius anything you say , I'm wasting my time , discussion is over !
My absolute target in forum for 15 years is to fool end users

The samples are stored as true stereo samples within the Pa5X

Explore any drumkit KSF sample you have imported as TX batch stereo samples genius and you might get a clue of what I mean.

If you had explored OS 1.3.0 and the 3rd party software KORG explicitely mentions as a tool for creating drumkits for the Pa5X as I did you wouldn't write such bullshit. Not only in this thread but in others too you pretend to be an expert but the only thing you do is to spread nonsense in such a shameless way, so that unexperiences people believe the crap you are selling is of high quality or "premium", as you describe it on your website.

You did not once try the method I use for creating RR drumkits nor did you ask for any reference which would proof me wrong if I were wrong.

Nobody cares that you have been active in this forum for 15 years, nor that I have been dealing with this topic for around 20 years, both on keyboards - especially from KORG - and with programming sounds and sample libraries for VST plugins. And when I talk about programming, I don't mean turning predefined knobs.

I am in this forum to describe my problems and concerns with the equipment as well as to help other musicians with (specific) problems for which I can give advice and solutions in good conscience based on my experience and not to insult others or to promote myself.


@Rodrigo.B as I said, let me know which VST drumkit you want in your Pa5X.

[AntonySharmman]

fatih89 you're totally ignored ... dismissed !
And watch your dirty mouth , my tolerance has limits ...

[Aripearlmusic]

Anthony knows his stuff. I have tested your (fatih89) method and I have one request for you (fatih89). please explain what stereo is and the differences between dual mono, stereo, and true stereo before and after a reverb. For bonus points please define "reverb" since you think you know more than all of us (some of which are seasoned professional sound designers and audio engineers for nearly 2 decades) Also with your method it is not 4000 samples it is 3,072. math matters lol

[fatih89]

Anthony knows his stuff. I have tested your (fatih89) method and I have one request for you (fatih89). please explain what stereo is and the differences between dual mono, stereo, and true stereo before and after a reverb. For bonus points please define "reverb" since you think you know more than all of us (some of which are seasoned professional sound designers and audio engineers for nearly 2 decades) Also with your method it is not 4000 samples it is 3,072.

4*8*127 = 4064 ≈ 4000
round robins * velocity layers * number of keys = total number of samples

round robins: 4 per key and per velocity layer
velocity layers: 8 per key
number of keys: 1111111 (bin) = 127 (dec)

math matters lol

Even if I did a miscalculation (which I did not), my point was that the whole process can be simplified with 3rd-party software and is reproducible with minimal effort and the highest quality (in terms of sample organization, consistency between different drumkits, etc.)


I am not answering the other questions, since it can be googled or "ChatGPT'ed" within 10 seconds. But maybe you can explain why you limit yourself with only 96 keys?


I never claimed to know more than others, but I know my stuff.
I you have tested "my" method upload a video of the whole process and proof me wrong.


Don't act like you are particularly smart.

[Aripearlmusic]

Oh okay so you oversample. You said 8 velocity layers with 4 round robin which would be 12×(128×2 (because of stereo)) but 4 round robins for low velocity below 48 adds nothing to the sound because it just gets lost in the mix unless you heavily saturated with compression which would just destroy the mix anyways.

[Aripearlmusic]

Also if you need more than 96 keys with four round robin on 8 velocity layers then you clearly have no idea how to play drums and probably have never worked with the real thing. If you have that many differences between everything then what you need is discipline not more samples. 96 keys to program a beat is absolutely ridiculous. I can program absolutely any style known to mankind using not more than 30 keys with 6 layers per genre

[fatih89]

Oh okay so you oversample. You said 8 velocity layers with 4 round robin which would be 12×(128×2 (because of stereo)) but 4 round robins for low velocity below 48 adds nothing to the sound because it just gets lost in the mix unless you heavily saturated with compression which would just destroy the mix anyways.

I agree with the point, that velocity 48 (or even 60) should be the minimum, but for another reasons. I analyzed my programmed percussion performances (grooves, loops, MIDI, however you want to name it) with that particular percussion kit (~4000 samples) and found out, that even velocity 60-70 I barely used. That's also why I am waiting for the developer of TX16Wx to release the update or public beta, which will allow us to use up to 127 choke groups (my request). Then I will adjust my workflow, i.e. for example to also narrow the velocity layers to the most probable played velocity values (and decrease the total number of velocity layers). The example with the ~4000 samples was just to get familiar with the software and to see how fast such a drumkit can be done now with the 3rd-party software and OS 1.3.0.

Depending on how the drumkit is resampled the volume of the samples itself are not the problem and a compression is not needed (in that case a low velocity intensity is absolutely fine, since here the dynamics were determined by the VST plugin and are therefore "baked" into the samples).

There are very special use-cases where also single velocity layers such as 1, 2, 3 etc. or very small velocity layer ranges such as 1-5, 6-10 etc. are extremely useful, not for musical but technical reasons. But this is another whole topic for itself and has nothing to do with RR.
Also don't forget that KORG gave us 16 velocity layers for drumkits with 1.3.0. So why not make us of it?

Also if you need more than 96 keys with four round robin on 8 velocity layers then you clearly have no idea how to play drums and probably have never worked with the real thing. If you have that many differences between everything then what you need is discipline not more samples. 96 keys to program a beat is absolutely ridiculous. I can program absolutely any style known to mankind using not more than 30 keys with 6 layers per genre

I made a (turkish) percussion kit, not drumkit. I wrote that in my very first post in this topic. It was also more a proof-of-concept than a ready-for-live-gigs kit, and it worked very well. You probably have never heard the percussion kits that were made by turkish musicians so far. For many years I begged for a RR feature for custom drum/percussion samples in KORG Pa keyboards. So far from all the SETs I know and have heard by myself only one turkish SET-developer has implemented a work-around for the RR feature (it was not a real RR, more like a change in pitch and panning on different velocity values for the same samples), which differentiated the sound of his styles from others.

I would be very thankful if we had double or even quadruple the amount of available keys. There are a lot of different percussion instruments and articulations that I need.

[Aripearlmusic]

So yeah I have more than 40tb of samples more than half of which are drums and percussion and yes I'm quite familiar with Turkish percussion and Turkish music as a whole. The majority of percussion kits that are available for keyboards as far as Turkish percussion do not have more than two layers for any key and they use the same recycled garbage samples that have been going around for the last 15 years to the point that it's nearly impossible to find anything that's made from scratch in the last 10 years. As far as Turkish percussion from plugins and sample packs there are plenty but you won't find a single one that has more than eight layers. All it takes to record it properly for sampling are 5 microphones. 2 for the head on either side, 2 overheads (optional), and a ribbon mic inside

[Rodrigo.B]

It is not "extremely difficult" to created RR DKs.

Read more carefully of what I wrote , talking about sampling a VST not 10 minutes of work in Pa5X with ready to go stereo samples.

Some tips for non "expert" guys !
- You must manually determine the proper RR sequence due to sound realistic , you mostly have to change sample timbre of some of them
using advanced external sound editors & gear.
- TXPROG & SF2 stereo formats when imported , are converted to two KMP files with the same name , each one ending with the ‘_L’ (Left)
or ‘_R’ (Right) extension. (page 61 of new features PDF)
This is called paired stereo samples and polyphony of Pa5X is downgraded to half as in Pa4X and if you remark them in samples editor 'ST' marker is not checked.
- The only way so far to create stereo samples in Pa5X DK editor is to import Wav/Aiff stereo samples and save them , this is the only way to preserve
160 polyphony in Pa5X and that's why Pa5X DK editor is the only correct way to create DKs in Pa5X.



Hope this helps

I already successfully resampled a drumkit with round robin samples. I used TX16Wx for auto mapping the velocity and RR layers and the key mapping. The samples are stored as true stereo samples within the Pa5X. KMP files are for multisamples only and have nothing to do with drumkits. The resampling of each RR sample for each velocity is done automatically by the DAW if the project is organized well. Of course this depends on the DAW. I use Studio One for this task (with proper markers, naming schemes of channel and volume etc.).

For me the most difficult part was to press the power button on my computer and type in the correct password for login into the system.

@Rodrigo.B let me know which VST drumkit (and preset) you want in your Pa5X. If I have that same VST I can help you out. Note that depending on how detailed the drumkit should be resampled it can take a lot of memory.

Sorry for the late answer, I have Ezdrummer 3 and I want to have in the Pa5x some of their EZX expansions like the Signature part 1 or the BigBand Ezx. Thank you

[fatih89]

Read more carefully of what I wrote , talking about sampling a VST not 10 minutes of work in Pa5X with ready to go stereo samples.

Some tips for non "expert" guys !
- You must manually determine the proper RR sequence due to sound realistic , you mostly have to change sample timbre of some of them
using advanced external sound editors & gear.
- TXPROG & SF2 stereo formats when imported , are converted to two KMP files with the same name , each one ending with the ‘_L’ (Left)
or ‘_R’ (Right) extension. (page 61 of new features PDF)
This is called paired stereo samples and polyphony of Pa5X is downgraded to half as in Pa4X and if you remark them in samples editor 'ST' marker is not checked.
- The only way so far to create stereo samples in Pa5X DK editor is to import Wav/Aiff stereo samples and save them , this is the only way to preserve
160 polyphony in Pa5X and that's why Pa5X DK editor is the only correct way to create DKs in Pa5X.



Hope this helps

I already successfully resampled a drumkit with round robin samples. I used TX16Wx for auto mapping the velocity and RR layers and the key mapping. The samples are stored as true stereo samples within the Pa5X. KMP files are for multisamples only and have nothing to do with drumkits. The resampling of each RR sample for each velocity is done automatically by the DAW if the project is organized well. Of course this depends on the DAW. I use Studio One for this task (with proper markers, naming schemes of channel and volume etc.).

For me the most difficult part was to press the power button on my computer and type in the correct password for login into the system.

@Rodrigo.B let me know which VST drumkit (and preset) you want in your Pa5X. If I have that same VST I can help you out. Note that depending on how detailed the drumkit should be resampled it can take a lot of memory.

Sorry for the late answer, I have Ezdrummer 3 and I want to have in the Pa5x some of their EZX expansions like the Signature part 1 or the BigBand Ezx. Thank you

Which presets of these libraries?

Are you familiar with editing drumkits on the Pa5X? Some settings, which are needed to be changed in the Pa5X, are not available in the software I use.

How many Velocity Layers and Round Robins do you want (I did not check how many these libraries have).

[Rodrigo.B]

I already successfully resampled a drumkit with round robin samples. I used TX16Wx for auto mapping the velocity and RR layers and the key mapping. The samples are stored as true stereo samples within the Pa5X. KMP files are for multisamples only and have nothing to do with drumkits. The resampling of each RR sample for each velocity is done automatically by the DAW if the project is organized well. Of course this depends on the DAW. I use Studio One for this task (with proper markers, naming schemes of channel and volume etc.).

For me the most difficult part was to press the power button on my computer and type in the correct password for login into the system.

@Rodrigo.B let me know which VST drumkit (and preset) you want in your Pa5X. If I have that same VST I can help you out. Note that depending on how detailed the drumkit should be resampled it can take a lot of memory.

Sorry for the late answer, I have Ezdrummer 3 and I want to have in the Pa5x some of their EZX expansions like the Signature part 1 or the BigBand Ezx. Thank you

Which presets of these libraries?

Are you familiar with editing drumkits on the Pa5X? Some settings, which are needed to be changed in the Pa5X, are not available in the software I use.

How many Velocity Layers and Round Robins do you want (I did not check how many these libraries have).

20 velocity layers and four round robins of the steel kit from the signature EZX, please!

[fatih89]

The Pa5X supports 16 velocity layers. But that's more than enough. Also I need to check if the kit has at least 4 RR.

Do you want the GM mapping, so you can exchange the drumkits in most factory styles, or the original from EZdrummer 3? Fortunately in the past I programmed a small plugin to convert SD3 mapping to GM.

Depending on how many keys are resampled the resulting drumkit can take a lot of memory.

[Rodrigo.B]

The Pa5X supports 16 velocity layers. But that's more than enough. Also I need to check if the kit has at least 4 RR.

Do you want the GM mapping, so you can exchange the drumkits in most factory styles, or the original from EZdrummer 3? Fortunately in the past I programmed a small plugin to convert SD3 mapping to GM.

Depending on how many keys are resampled the resulting drumkit can take a lot of memory.

Thank you so much I want the same drum map of the factory styles please

[marlo74]

So can someone please explain how to create a Round Robin sample using the PA5X? MEANING landing 4 samples and layering them in one RR Drum sample to be used in a drum kit.

[fatih89]

So can someone please explain how to create a Round Robin sample using the PA5X? MEANING landing 4 samples and layering them in one RR Drum sample to be used in a drum kit.

Korg wrote a tutorial for this using the professional version of tx16wx plugin used in DAWs.
https://www.korg.com/us/support/downloa ... /895/5248/

Btw: the developer of that plugin implemented my suggestion regarding the number of choke groups in the latest version. You can now assign 127 groups.