Horrific portamento

[daddy]

Solve the portamento once and for all! It was terrible on the entire PA series! ”Time portamento” should work at least like on the triton series!

[fatih89]

The portamento on the whole Pa series is an embarassment.

[daddy]

Yes. If portamento were good, it would probably significantly reduce sales of Kronos/Nautilus synthesizers in some countries, which is why they haven't solved this problem for over 20 years! (

[Scott]

Solve the portamento once and for all! It was terrible on the entire PA series! ”Time portamento” should work at least like on the triton series!

I'm curious how it differs from the Triton. In general, portamento is problematic on any board that generates its sounds from samples. It's one of the advantages of analog and VA synths.

[striphio]

In Triton, Kronos and Nautilus, with multisamples it's better and more smooth. On Pa when you slide more then 2 or 3 semitone it's not smooth and you can hear glitches or something.
I will copy text from Juzisound sampler (which have the best portamento as I know) website where it's explained something about it.

"What is difference between Juzisound’s Portamento and other samplers Portamento:
There are 4 big differenced, between portamento realization in Juzisound Total SOLO Samplers and all other hardware samplers: 1. In all hardware samplers to this moment, portamento is realized by the same way. When portamento effect is starting, this is made with ONLY ONE sample. This is sample of the last note before portamento effect starts. The result of this method is unnatural sounding, because the final note of portamento is played with the wrong sample of the start note. The bigger the interval between notes is, the more unnatural is the sound.
In Juzisound we have many new types of portamento, where portamento starts with the sample of the current note, and completes with the sample of the destination note. In other words the sampler makes crossfade between samples of the start and the final note. Does that sound good? Yes, but this is only the simple version. Furthermore it is possible to make same advantages of this conception, like using another different sample only for the sample transition, or play portamento with using crossfade based of all samples between the current and the destination note. Result of this is very natural and realistic transition between notes when portamento is applied. Many other user adjustable parameters are available for very fine tuning of this process, including sample offset controls and many more...
2. In most hardware samplers, the time of portamento is depending from the interval between the start and the destination note. This is not good for ethno music. In Juzisound sampler is possible to fix portamento time, and the time will be equal, regardless of note intervals
3. Most common problem is also the type of portamento. Ethno style keyboard player needs portamento only when new note starts before previous note ends. In some keyboards this is named "Fingered" portamento but in most models this portamento is not implemented. In Juzisound we have all modes of portamento, plus dependency of portamento time from note velocity, like in MOSS boards.
4. In most hardware samplers, portamento frequency is updated in big time period. For example, in KORG portamento update interval is 15 milliseconds. Good portamento time when play fast is around 30 milliseconds. If the update interval is 15 ms, then there is no smooth glide between notes. You will listen only 2 or maximum 3 changes of sound frequency. This not sounds good at all. In Juzisound sampler, portamento frequency update interval is 1milliseconds! There is a big difference. The transition between notes is smooth and pleased to listen."

[fatih89]

Solve the portamento once and for all! It was terrible on the entire PA series! ”Time portamento” should work at least like on the triton series!

I'm curious how it differs from the Triton. In general, portamento is problematic on any board that generates its sounds from samples. It's one of the advantages of analog and VA synths.

This is not true. Sample-based sounds can have an excellent portamento, if a good implementation is given. For example for NI Kontakt for YEARS there exist a FREE, open-source and highly customizable legato and portamento script. It allows to adjust almost every aspect you can imagine, such as:

Legato Parameters
- Cross-Fade Time (between samples)
- Legato Bend Time
- Variation 0-10% (Humanizer/Randomizer)
- Sample Offset (for Cross-Faded samples)
- Sample Offset 0-10% Humanizer

For each UP and DOWN Legato parameters
- Legato Minimum Bending from 0-100ct
- Slope Factor per Octave, i.e. bending is increased the higher the notes are apart
- Bend Contour
- Humanizer for the Paramters

For each UP and DOWN Portamento parameters
- Glide Time
- Time Factor per Octave
- Glide Contour
- Sample Offset

And a button to switch between legato and portamento, which can also be automated depending on additional implementation within the script, e.g. specific velocity triggered. Actually each parameter can be dynamically controlled.

This OPEN SOURCE script is a base for a lot of high quality libraries for e.g. flutes, saxophones, violins etc. I tried and customized this script using some basic multisamples I resampled from my Pa3X back then. And let me tell you, the difference is HUGE. It is hard to explain. Since it is open source, it can be easily implemented into any sampler. Even without this free and open-source script, I am sure KORG has capable developers to implement at least a proper basic cross-fade portamento.
Many people are not aware of the impact this would have on sound quality in the Pa series.

The Pa series sound editor already has a LOT of features and functions, but a good portamento is just missing. An advanced portamento would (probably) also require some changes in the sampler / sample format, i.e. for example defining sample offset-ranges (not only points).

I hope that KORG developers read this thread and take it serious. It is such a huge point.

[daddy]

Yes. I have Juzisound 2 and portamento is great. I also have a Kronos and portamento is great. I don't understand why in PA series, "time portamento" is so bad!

[striphio]

Yes. I have Juzisound 2 and portamento is great. I also have a Kronos and portamento is great. I don't understand why in PA series, "time portamento" is so bad!

I guess it has something to do with this from my previous post :
4. In most hardware samplers, portamento frequency is updated in big time period. For example, in KORG portamento update interval is 15 milliseconds. Good portamento time when play fast is around 30 milliseconds. If the update interval is 15 ms, then there is no smooth glide between notes. You will listen only 2 or maximum 3 changes of sound frequency. This not sounds good at all. In Juzisound sampler, portamento frequency update interval is 1milliseconds! There is a big difference. The transition between notes is smooth and pleased to listen."

I wonder can this be fixed with software update?

[Scott]

I also have a Kronos and portamento is great.

I would expect great portamento in Kronos, with its variety of sound engines. But what about their strictly sample-based workstations, i.e. Kross and Krome? Is the problem really specific to PA series? Or does it occur in any Korg that uses only sample based synthesis? i.e. is it a limitation of PA or a limitation of Korg's sample-based boards, whether PA or not?

(As an aside, I know people have complained about the portamento behavior in sample-based Yamahas as well.)

[fatih89]

I also have a Kronos and portamento is great.

I would expect great portamento in Kronos, with its variety of sound engines. But what about their strictly sample-based workstations, i.e. Kross and Krome? Is the problem really specific to PA series? Or does it occur in any Korg that uses only sample based synthesis? i.e. is it a limitation of PA or a limitation of Korg's sample-based boards, whether PA or not?

(As an aside, I know people have complained about the portamento behavior in sample-based Yamahas as well.)

Yamaha has a cross-fade portamento with a few features since the A5000. Feature-wise it is still not as good as I wish it should be, but it is so much better than the portamento in the Pa series.

The update interval is not the essential problem.

[daddy]

I also have a Kronos and portamento is great.

I would expect great portamento in Kronos, with its variety of sound engines. But what about their strictly sample-based workstations, i.e. Kross and Krome? Is the problem really specific to PA series? Or does it occur in any Korg that uses only sample based synthesis? i.e. is it a limitation of PA or a limitation of Korg's sample-based boards, whether PA or not?

(As an aside, I know people have complained about the portamento behavior in sample-based Yamahas as well.)

On the Kronos I am very happy with the monophonic portamento. On the Yamaha DX21 I really liked the portamento. Even on the Motif it was satisfactory, but on the PA series it is terrible.

[Scott]

I also have a Kronos and portamento is great.

I would expect great portamento in Kronos, with its variety of sound engines. But what about their strictly sample-based workstations, i.e. Kross and Krome? Is the problem really specific to PA series? Or does it occur in any Korg that uses only sample based synthesis? i.e. is it a limitation of PA or a limitation of Korg's sample-based boards, whether PA or not?

(As an aside, I know people have complained about the portamento behavior in sample-based Yamahas as well.)

On the Kronos I am very happy with the monophonic portamento. On the Yamaha DX21 I really liked the portamento. Even on the Motif it was satisfactory, but on the PA series it is terrible.

Of course Kronos would have great portamento because it has VA and FM sound engines, which always do portamento well. DX21 likewise is FM. The issue, where boards can have problems with portamento, is when doing it with sampled sounds. Kross and Krome only have sampled sounds. PA arrangers likewise only have sampled sounds. That's why I was asking if Korg's portamento issue was only in their PA models, or actually in any of their models that use sampling to produce all their sounds (meaning also non-PA models, like Kross and Krome). Or, within the Kronos, while it obviously can do good portamento in its various VA and FM sound engines, how is its portamento if your sound only uses its sample-based HD1 engine?

[striphio]

I would expect great portamento in Kronos, with its variety of sound engines. But what about their strictly sample-based workstations, i.e. Kross and Krome? Is the problem really specific to PA series? Or does it occur in any Korg that uses only sample based synthesis? i.e. is it a limitation of PA or a limitation of Korg's sample-based boards, whether PA or not?

(As an aside, I know people have complained about the portamento behavior in sample-based Yamahas as well.)

On the Kronos I am very happy with the monophonic portamento. On the Yamaha DX21 I really liked the portamento. Even on the Motif it was satisfactory, but on the PA series it is terrible.

Of course Kronos would have great portamento because it has VA and FM sound engines, which always do portamento well. DX21 likewise is FM. The issue, where boards can have problems with portamento, is when doing it with sampled sounds. Kross and Krome only have sampled sounds. PA arrangers likewise only have sampled sounds. That's why I was asking if Korg's portamento issue was only in their PA models, or actually in any of their models that use sampling to produce all their sounds (meaning also non-PA models, like Kross and Krome). Or, within the Kronos, while it obviously can do good portamento in its various VA and FM sound engines, how is its portamento if your sound only uses its sample-based HD1 engine?

In Kronos, portamento with samples in HD-1 is much better than Pa series.

[daddy]

I would expect great portamento in Kronos, with its variety of sound engines. But what about their strictly sample-based workstations, i.e. Kross and Krome? Is the problem really specific to PA series? Or does it occur in any Korg that uses only sample based synthesis? i.e. is it a limitation of PA or a limitation of Korg's sample-based boards, whether PA or not?

(As an aside, I know people have complained about the portamento behavior in sample-based Yamahas as well.)

On the Kronos I am very happy with the monophonic portamento. On the Yamaha DX21 I really liked the portamento. Even on the Motif it was satisfactory, but on the PA series it is terrible.

Of course Kronos would have great portamento because it has VA and FM sound engines, which always do portamento well. DX21 likewise is FM. The issue, where boards can have problems with portamento, is when doing it with sampled sounds. Kross and Krome only have sampled sounds. PA arrangers likewise only have sampled sounds. That's why I was asking if Korg's portamento issue was only in their PA models, or actually in any of their models that use sampling to produce all their sounds (meaning also non-PA models, like Kross and Krome). Or, within the Kronos, while it obviously can do good portamento in its various VA and FM sound engines, how is its portamento if your sound only uses its sample-based HD1 engine?

Portamento is very good on the Kronos even in the HD-1 engine. Incidentally, it was also good on the Korg M3, although it was also based on samples.

[daddy]

I have the impression that portamento is also related to ”release”, which cannot truly be reduced to 0.