Editing Workflow and File Structure Saving

[RoccoD]

Hello All,

This may be a simple question for most, but it's been bothering me for a while since I have been working with the Pa5X. First let me say that I think this arranger, when everything (hopefully) gets debugged and working, will be best in class with a ton of potential.

My question is related to my workflow and file structure when working with songs and saving my work. I also work with styles, but want to focus on songs first since my question would be similar. Here is what I normally do:

1) I have a clean MIDI file that I prepare in my DAW for import into the Pa5X.
2) I import the midi file and perform edits, assign sounds, levels, effects, finalizer and save the song to my SD card.
3) I then typically make a custom keyboard set that I want to work with the song and save it to my SD card.
4) Once these are set up I set up a book entry that recalls the song and keyboard set.

5) I start rehearsing, and find I need to make edits to the song and/or the keyboard set so go into Rec/Edit mode and make changes. What is the correct/safe way to make edits and the proper way to save changes? It seems like I struggle at this point because if I make edits to the song and Save Song and then Save Book Entry it sometimes doesn't seem to save some of my changes correctly. My understanding was that if I'm working in Songbook mode, I should be able to make changes to my song and keyboard set at the songbook level without disrupting anything (true?). Is that the best way to make changes or should I save changes first to Song and Keyboard Set and the save again to Songbook? It seems like I get different results if I make edits and save files differently. I'm guessing it may have something to do with the file structure hierarchy that I must not understand. I haven't done a rigorous experiment, but find that it's sometimes trial and error and not sure if it's me or if there are still bugs within the system and I'm not totally crazy!

By the way using either method I have found that sometimes after I save my changes and then come out of REC/EDIT mode my system hangs (crashes) and I have to restart the system...most of the time my edits were saved before the crash but there have been a few times where it doesn't for some reason...I find it to be super-frustrating and not reliable. Either way there should be no case where the OS hangs after making simple edits!!

Thanks for reading and if you have any suggestions my thanks in advance!

Rocco

[Ron]

Rocco -I know you asked to focus on SONGS but I just want to say that I think I have experienced the same issues with STYLES and their SONGBOOK entries. I am relatively new to the 5X but I've had a 4X for many years. Nonetheless, I decided the apparent issues were due to my inexperience with the 5X. Maybe there are some problems in the system.

You are probably aware that the SONGBOOK database file (SBD) does not actually contain a copy of the STYLE in use. The SBD "points" to the resource. You can test this yourself by deleting the STYLE used in the SONG in the SONGBOOK and see that the SONGBOOK then reports "Resource Not Found." The SBD file only saves your edits such as to keyboard sets and applies them to the referenced STYLE. I would think the same has to be true for SONGS (MIDI Files) in the SONGBOOK. (In fact, I believe all styles are stored as SMF's with markers. If so, the SONGBOOK is modifying MIDI files for both STYLES and SONGS. Would be good to hear from someone who knows if this is true.)

A red flag to me is that you start with a MIDI file not from the 5X. Shouldn't matter but...

I have not done much with SONGS into the SONGBOOK so far but with styles, I have had the most success (fewest problems) by creating a copy of the STYLE I intend to use, making all edits and then saving to SONGBOOK. If edits are needed at a later time, I edit the STYLE copy and then re-save to the SONGBOOK. I DO NOT edit the SONGBOOK entry directly.

Pretty sure none this answers none of your questions but thought it might be useful to hear someone else's experience.

Looking forward to responses from those of you that know more about this.

Thanks.

[siebenhirter]

... I need to make edits to the song and/or the keyboard set so go into Rec/Edit mode and make changes. .... if I make edits to the song and Save Song and then Save Book Entry it sometimes doesn't seem to save some of my changes correctly ..

Hello Rocco,
If you select a Song-based Entry, then you use a link to a file (SMF .mid, .kar; .mp3). This file is located as a song somewhere in the system, but the song is not saved in the songbook.
Changes to a song will not be saved to the SongBook Entry - only the data included in the MID file will be used. If you want to change them, edit and save the SMF in Song Edit mode.
You can do this without to edit a songbook entry - unless you change the location or name of the SMF, else causing a linkage error.
*
With keyboard sets and various settings, things are different. A linked Song will be recalled because of its link.

But there are Pads, Keyboard Sets, Mic/Guitar Preset and a ChordSequence also be recalled/loaded, because editable and saved in a Songbook-Entry.
Also some other performance settings are to adjust in sb-entries, like Volume levels and the Play/Mute status for the MIDI Song tracks.
The Master Transpose value saved in the SongBook Entry overrides any Master Transpose setting contained in the associated resource.

PS: it is similar with Style-based Entry. When chosen, it will select a linked Style that will be recalled.
That means, you can not change the sequences of style tracks in songbook!
If the Style to Keyboard Set function is activated, Keyboard Set #1 will be selected.
The selected Style Element, and the status of the Synchro and Memory functions, will be memorized when saving the SongBook Entry.
Volume levels and the Play/Mute status for the Style tracks can be set in sb-entry.
You can save a different chord recognition area in each of the Keyboard Sets inside a SongBook Entry.
You can choose a different Tempo for the Style.
You can choose different Sounds and Effects for the Style tracks.....

[pa4x_user]

I am a Pa4X user only, so can’t comment on the discussion thus far.

But I don’t think that ‘File Structure Saving’ can be addressed without a discussion about how you are doing backups. Obviously, that is critical and needs to be able to be done easily and regularly.

In my case, I have migrated the songbook to DIRECT.

My SD has a directory which I have called MY STUFF which contains the following folders:

DIRECT.SET with the Songbook and other Korg sub folders, and

MY SONGS which has sub folders
Midis
MP3’s
SFX (this contains special effects as MP3’s, such as waves crashing, police sirens etc and only used occasionally)

After every session at my keyboard, if I have re-programmed anything, I copy MY STUFF to a flash drive, and then to cloud storage on my PC as ‘MY STUFF yyyy-mm-dd’ . On one occasion where I made some really bad file changes on my Pa4X, the backups saved me. Not saying this is the best way to organise and backup files, but it works for me.

(I hope I have not hijacked this thread, it seemed to be the missing part of a discussion on ‘File Structure saving’.)

Phil

[Ron]

Hi Phil,

The 5X does not recognize a "DIRECT" resources as did the 4X. The 5X has a single Songbook database file (SBD) that holds all Songbook data. The user does not have the option to create separate directories within the database. However, as you suggest, saving the Songbook after changes is certainly a good idea.

Ron

[pa4x_user]

Thanks Ron, always something new for me to learn

[pa4x_user]

Thanks Ron, always something new for me to learn

[AntonySharmman]

The 5X does not recognize a "DIRECT" resources as did the 4X.

Pa5X does not need to have a single DIRECT.KST because it can read any KST folder from any external media , Korg Disk /USB/mSD
just like computer explorer , very strange if songbook do not support any KST folder entry ... explore it to be sure !

[Ron]

Hi Antony,

Sorry if my post if was confusing or worse, incorrect. I was just trying to make Phil aware that the file structure of the 5X is different than the 4X. The 4X stored music resources in Factory, User (Favorite) and Direct locations. The 5X file structure is different. Only Factory and User, structured like any PC. Factory info is locked and cannot be modified. User files can be changed both on the 5X. User files (KST's) and their contents can also be manipulated on a PC. Files changed on the 5X should be backed up regularly, especially when significant edits have been made. I think you have made us aware of all this on several previous occasions.

I think the 5X Songbook is different though. To the best of my knowledge, there can be only one Songbook database file (SBD). Songs can be added, deleted and modified but I think only on the 5X - not on the PC. Hope I'm wrong about this but not home right now so can't verify. Regardless, I hope Korg eventually provides a Songbook Editor for the 5X, similar to what they provided for the 4X.

I might start a new thread regarding the Songbook after I have a chance to check this out a bit more. Still learning my around the new toy.

Best Regards,
Ron

[AntonySharmman]

I'm also out of home for Easter vacation in my sea home due to test anything !
I do not use songbook at all , but I'm pretty sure that if you save a KST folder anywhere with
a ton of Styles and KBD Set (with factory samples resources or already loaded custom samples)
you can browse them via songbook (not related to computer) and do the same as with factory
styles & KBD Set as you do with only DIRECT set in Pa4X.

[Ron]

Antony, would like to explore this more with you when my keyboard is available. Won't be until next week. Enjoy your vacation.

Best regards,
Ron

[RoccoD]

But there are Pads, Keyboard Sets, Mic/Guitar Preset and a ChordSequence also be recalled/loaded, because editable and saved in a Songbook-Entry.
Also some other performance settings are to adjust in sb-entries, like Volume levels and the Play/Mute status for the MIDI Song tracks.
The Master Transpose value saved in the SongBook Entry overrides any Master Transpose setting contained in the associated resource.

This is where it gets a little confusing to me. I agree that as many edits should be made within the MIDI file and saved as within the SONG, but there seems to be parameters that the SONGBOOK can pass to the SONG file (similar to when you are using a factory style and for example only want to change the tempo...this can be done at the SONGBOOK level.) I understand that the SONGBOOK file will always take precedence. It would be nice if there was a listing of parameters that the SONGBOOK can change for the SONGs and STYLES.