Soundquest Editor jumble

Post by **Sharp** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:54 pm

How on earth could such a simple act generate 50MB of data in the first place.

Sharp.

mathieumaes · Post by **mathieumaes** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:11 pm

Sharp wrote:How on earth could such a simple act generate 50MB of data in the first place.

I was thinking that too... I believe a complete PCG file is 43 Mb...

MIDI used to be a very simple but effective protocol for communication. With the introduction of more advanced synths and the need to exchange binary data, sysEX came to life...

But you should still know MIDI is a very ineffective and slow protocol to send/receive binary data...

But it's obvious now how it went... Korg needed an editor for their flagship. Sound quest has years of experience in developing third party editors and librarian. For them, MIDI is the only universal protocol they could use for all their software. Korg made a deal with soundquest for the editor, and they used MIDI because that would be most cost effective.

SoundQuest · Post by **SoundQuest** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:03 pm

curvebender wrote:
Sharp wrote:
If you are talking the time it takes to load a complete Set (that's 4 - 5 mintues), that is simply how long is takes at full speed USB 2 to transfer over 50MB of data.
I assume you mean seconds ?

Regards
Sharp.
I'm also confused by this statement.

Let's hope he either means 4-5 seconds, or 5 Gb!

No, it is minutes - that is as fast as the system runs and is completely outside the control of the software. That is to request, acknowledge, setup, and transfer almost 8,000 individual blocks of data. It is not the same as transferring a single 50MB block of data. Aside from that the software is sending and receiving the data as fast as the other components of the system will allow.

SoundQuest · Post by **SoundQuest** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:07 pm

When I talk about a 50MB transfer, I am talking about all of the data in the Kronos - Programs, Combis, Drums, WaveSequences, etc. Obviously a single program is much smaller.

Post by **Sharp** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:23 pm

SoundQuest wrote:
curvebender wrote:
Sharp wrote: I assume you mean seconds ?

Regards
Sharp.
I'm also confused by this statement.

Let's hope he either means 4-5 seconds, or 5 Gb!
No, it is minutes - that is as fast as the system runs and is completely outside the control of the software. That is to request, acknowledge, setup, and transfer almost 8,000 individual blocks of data. It is not the same as transferring a single 50MB block of data. Aside from that the software is sending and receiving the data as fast as the other components of the system will allow.

FAIL....!!!!

mathieumaes · Post by **mathieumaes** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:01 pm

SoundQuest wrote: No, it is minutes - that is as fast as the system runs and is completely outside the control of the software. .

Sorry, but then you're doing it wrong!

If Korg forced you to build software using MIDI, then it's outside your control but my guess is that the keyboard's USB port could've given better options.

I admit, every editor/librarian I've seen so far (Roland AX editor, M-Audio Axiom, Yamaha S90, ...) uses MIDI to communicate with the device, but that doesn't mean we have to be "ok" with the fact that MIDI has its limitations.

Think outside the box!

Sam CA · Post by **Sam CA** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:16 pm

Why use such an outdated technology for transferring current massive Data? Isn't this kind of like trying to break the concrete with the fist?

zzz · Post by **zzz** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:36 pm

Um.. some thoughts from a non-programmer, but, I think anyway, fairly common sensical:
while I can accept a wait while everyhing fires up (look at K!), if I wish to spend the next couple of hours programming some AL-1 voices, I would assume that when I get the AL-1 pages up, mostly everything else goes into a back seat loop ("Hasn't he finished yet? No? Oh well, let's twiddle our thumbs for a few more seconds.."), and the AL-1 pages to be eager to please.
Likewise if I'm sorting out some programs, and where I want to put them, and in what order (sound familiar?); I'm sure that you can see where I'm going with this. I don't know if fuzzy logic is still a term that's applied, but it fits here.
Yes, the K has nine engines, but you don't always want them firing off all at once.

aron · Post by **aron** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:06 pm

> Think outside the box!

What box? Korg sets the rules, if you need to send xx amount of data to do something - then Korg needs to rethink things, not the editor/librarian.

Chrutil · Post by **Chrutil** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:18 pm

I seem to be at a loss understanding some of these complaints.
Can someone educate me in where these significant delays are found?
I have spent only a limited time with the editor, but the only significant delay I have found was when I went to global and transferred *everything* from the Kronos to the Editor. This took minutes, but since I then save it to disk in the Editor I don't have to do it again.
After that, switching programs in SetList or going to Program Mode does not seem to incur any delays other than a second syncup or so.
I have not tried the VST, but in the Editor, are there cases I have not yet run into that causes unacceptable delays?

As for MIDI v.s. some other private protocol I'm not sure I understand that discussion either (feeling dumb today).
Yes it is using the MIDI *protocol* over USB, but it is using it at a much higher bandwidth than the standard MIDI ports so why is the protocol an issue?

Thanks for any clarification,
C

Sam CA · Post by **Sam CA** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:46 pm

aron wrote:> Think outside the box!

What box? Korg sets the rules, if you need to send xx amount of data to do something - then Korg needs to rethink things, not the editor/librarian.

hmmm....mathieumaes said exactly the same thing!

He said:
"If Korg forced you to build software using MIDI, then it's outside your control"

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:10 pm

A complete pre OS1.5 PCG file for the Kronos is about 34 MB.
A PCG file from OS1.5 is about 43 MB, mainly because of the new program banks U-AA to U-GG.

And yes ... MIDI is not really a very efficient protocol. Keep in mind this protocol is 30 or 40 years old (?) but still does its job.

MRedZac · Post by **MRedZac** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:10 pm

OK, enough now about data transfer speed... WHAT ABOUT 64BIT SUPPORT for Windows Hosts ??

Cheers
Garfield

aron · Post by **aron** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:25 pm

It's almost like they could have used VNC through USB or something and then rescale the screen of the Kronos to the computer - and allow resizing. It might have been easier and faster than writing an editor. Less bugs too if all it did was display the screen of the Kronos.

robinkle · Post by **robinkle** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:05 pm

I have a bit of experience with Midi Quest editors and I must say I'm suprised of how good it is compared to what I expected. I'm happy we have Midi Quest to make editors for old equipment.

But if I compare it with a Virus TI editor, the Kronos editor is far behind!
Even when using USB 1.1 on the Virus TI, it is fully optimal. What you do in the editor happens simultaneously on the Synth. This is not the case for the Kronos editor.

Korg Kronos is a workstation that is ment to gather the best technology Korg has ever created into one hell of a machine. But I guess this filosophy does not include the editor, which is more like traveling back in time.