KingKorg is legit!!!!

[xmlguy]

xmlguy, if you only read the title of the software you downloaded and installed: it reads "librarian" not "editor". looks like the editor is yet to materialize.

For all of the other Korg VA synths, there's one software application that serves as the editor and librarian. A librarian without editing, that doesn't show any details of what's in a program, and that doesn't seem to allow any copying of individual timbres, oscillators and effects, is well...more idiotic and useless than I expected from Korg. Splitting up these functions into two apps makes no sense to me, but at least that leaves the possibility that the editor will be useful for me, so I hope you're right that an editor will be forthcoming.

[djcactus]

I just downloaded and tried the King Korg software editor. What a huge disappointment! Unlike every other editor for Korg synths, it doesn't show any programming details of the patches if you don't have the synth attached, apparently. All the other editors for the Radias, R3, and MicroKorg XL let you see all the details of programs without having the synth attached. This is a vital feature to me that I use all the time to look at patches to convert them between different synths and to try to help others on this forum. I often don't need the synth hardware to answer many questions that people have about particular patches, since I've been programming synths for decades and I usually know how a patch basically works and will sound if I can see these details. This lets me help novices who don't know how to program their synth, without me having to own that synth. I've helped many people here using this technique. I also use the editor to review and edit programs for the synths that I do own, but that I don't have currently connected, such as at other locations. I've even used the editors to create and modify patches while I've been travelling, without the synth itself, to make use of free time. Even though I can't hear the patch without the synth attached, I can usually get a program about 95% done without hearing it, then just fine tune it when I do get attached.

All the editor shows is the oscillator name with no parameters at all. It shows the effect names, but also no parameters. I also notice that there are no drag and drop options. The software doesn't look even remotely similar to the prior editors, while the prior editors shared a very similar design to each other. It's really irritating that Korg has completely thrown out a good design and started from scratch, losing these important features in the process.

Its a librarian, if that helps. In a few of the videos KORG reps had been asked if there was going to be an editor, usually answered with "Probably not, but there will be a form of librarian software."

from the KK page:
"Support for librarian software that lets you manage programs
You can manage programs on your computer simply by connecting KingKORG to your computer via a USB cable and using the librarian software. The librarian software can be downloaded at no charge from the Korg website or from the website of your local Korg distributor."

So if you were wondering why the editer sucked so bad, its because its a librarian.

[xmlguy]

Its a librarian, if that helps. In a few of the videos KORG reps had been asked if there was going to be an editor, usually answered with "Probably not, but there will be a form of librarian software."

from the KK page:
"Support for librarian software that lets you manage programs
You can manage programs on your computer simply by connecting KingKORG to your computer via a USB cable and using the librarian software. The librarian software can be downloaded at no charge from the Korg website or from the website of your local Korg distributor."

So if you were wondering why the editer sucked so bad, its because its a librarian.

Wow. Words fail me. That's just too idiotic for me to believe to be true of Korg. Korg's software editors have been the most important features of their VA synths, particularly on models that don't have controls for full editing. Menu diving sucks ass.

[antitolg]

From my view the acoustic pianos are toy stuff, not seriously useable.

Not holding back anything, I just don't see why you don't get by with the meanwhile various youtube examples - and perhaps test one at your local dealer. I'm glad I get my music going in the limited time I have for it.

Why? Because my (non)local dealer doesn't have them yet (no ETA) and even when it does I won't be able to check it out by my own since it's not... well, local

So as many examples as I can audition are fine. (didn't mean to imply that I specifically expected them from you btw)

[djcactus]

They will probably make an editer for it, I just think maybe they learned something from the kronos.

[jimknopf]

xmlguy, I would like an editor as well, but not because it is needed, but because it can add to better patch building overview.

Not much menu diving required on the KK, anyway.
The main controls are directly accessible via knobs (ADSR, Cutoff, Resonance, preamp and effects), and the others are well accessable via the sound category knobs. It's all very straightforward, nothing complicated.

So for the first use an editor is really not urgent. But for putting together a useful sound library with graphical overview of sound characteristics, it would definitely be very useful. I would even pay for it for that purpose.

[jimknopf]

Nice overview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T1Zt6ZwNOg

[michelkeijzers]

So for the first use an editor is really not urgent. But for putting together a useful sound library with graphical overview of sound characteristics, it would definitely be very useful. I would even pay for it for that purpose.

I hope PCG Tools works as a librarian for you in some way... however I would be interested what you mean with graphical overview of sound characterists. Can you write some details about it ... maybe I can use it in future PCG Tools ideas.

[xmlguy]

I hope PCG Tools works as a librarian for you in some way... however I would be interested what you mean with graphical overview of sound characterists. Can you write some details about it ... maybe I can use it in future PCG Tools ideas.

I was wondering when you would mention PCG Tools in relation to the KingKorg's Librarian. It seems like they aren't doing anything more with their librarian than yours, and I think yours does more than theirs, as I recall. So it kinda makes their software pointless, and why do they step on a third-party's niche without any real benefit, unless they are just completely ignorant of your software (quite possible).

I think I may know what Jim was referring to. Have you downloaded the editor/librarian software for the Radias, R3, and Microkorg XL? They have graphical editors for programming. You can also download the manuals for these synths to see the block diagrams, which show a graphical diagram of the synth structure in regular and vocoding modes. You don't need to own these synths to run the editors.

[michelkeijzers]

I hope PCG Tools works as a librarian for you in some way... however I would be interested what you mean with graphical overview of sound characterists. Can you write some details about it ... maybe I can use it in future PCG Tools ideas.

I was wondering when you would mention PCG Tools in relation to the KingKorg's Librarian. It seems like they aren't doing anything more with their librarian than yours, and I think yours does more than theirs, as I recall. So it kinda makes their software pointless, and why do they step on a third-party's niche without any real benefit, unless they are just completely ignorant of your software (quite possible).

I think I may know what Jim was referring to. Have you downloaded the editor/librarian software for the Radias, R3, and Microkorg XL? They have graphical editors for programming. You can also download the manuals for these synths to see the block diagrams, which show a graphical diagram of the synth structure in regular and vocoding modes. You don't need to own these synths to run the editors.

PCG Tools does not support King Korg yet, because it does not use a PCG or similar format. Also there are no patch files available to test or reverse engineer. I have already contacted Korg about this but if there is no PCG alike format I cannot do much.

About the graphical overview: yes I know what you mean. It would be a nice addition but it's a lot of work. Not necessarily the graphics itself, but managing all parameters. These parameter differ from model to model and since I know support more than 10 different models it would be a huge project. That is also the reason I have not checked all those different editors.

[xmlguy]

Yes, the KingKorg has its own format for libraries and programs. You can create them with the current librarian because the software contains the factory preset library. The Korg VA synth file formats are much simpler than PCG because they have no resources like multisamples, combis, multis, etc. They have program (.kkprog) and library (.kklib) files. The file format will probably follow the midi documentation.

[michelkeijzers]

Yes, the KingKorg has its own format for libraries and programs. You can create them with the current librarian because the software contains the factory preset library. The Korg VA synth file formats are much simpler than PCG because they have no resources like multisamples, combis, multis, etc. They have program (.kkprog) and library (.kklib) files. The file format will probably follow the midi documentation.

Probably it is simpler, however PCG Tools is based on the fact that there are combis. Of course I could strip it out, but the usage will be quite limited but maybe still useful. What still would work is:
- Editing names of programs
- Sorting
- Compacting
- Clearing
- Copy between different KingKorg files
- Creating a patch list
- Creating a summary list

Maybe it is still worth spending time to this ... I guess only the name is quite easy to extract (since that would be the only part to be used). And possibly category names if those are used.

[jimknopf]

Hi Michel,

I wasn't even a ware of the PCG-Tools possibility for a KK. If it should be available I will be glad to use it, knowing it well from the Kronos.

Indeed I am referring to a kind of graphical interface which is outside the design of the present pcg layout. In subtractive synthesis, you can get a very fast and direct overview over a sound, if you have a software editor with
- graphical ADSR curves (separate for filter and amp) with points moveable by mouse. That's a) a much faster approach than putting in numerical values and b) delivers a much better 'once glance' view at these essential sound characteristics
- combine this with a good one or two page (preamp and effect settings on second page) overview of the other parameters, and it becomes much more straightforward to manage patches, than just with the hardware surface or even a librarian

Besides the editors xmlguy mentioned, there were former programs like Sounddiver (e.g. for early Access Virus models), the present Access TI editor and many other examples out there. I guess Korg is completely aware of the possibility, but waiting how well the device will sell to decide if there are enough users bound to this Korg synth, by then delivering what they will surely regard as extra class support for a very usesful and good sounding poly-synth. In other words: an editor of that kind would then significantly push further user interest, for an already very intersting product IMHO, and then they could probably gain more from it than they invest.

[michelkeijzers]

Hi Michel,

I wasn't even a ware of the PCG-Tools possibility for a KK. If it should be available I will be glad to use it, knowing it well from the Kronos.

Indeed I am referring to a kind of graphical interface which is outside the design of the present pcg layout. In subtractive synthsis, you can get a very fast and direct overview over a sound, if you have
- graphical ADSR curves (separate for filter and amp) with points moveable by mouse. That's a) a much faster approach than putting in numerical values and b) delivers a much better 'once glance' view at these essential sound characteristics
- combine this with a good one or two page (preamp and effect settings on second page) overview of the other parameters, and it becomes much more straightforward to manage patches, than just with the hardware surface or even a librarian

I will put the King Kronos on things to check in future (though I have already enough plans for the next 1-2 months).

I will not put the graphics on the wish list, there is already an item if I recall to add 'parameters' and this is one (well a set) of them. The ADSR curves are different per synthesis engine (like HD1, EDS, AI2 etc), so it is not so trivial to implement, well it's more time consuming at least.

I think the categories have to do (you know you can make a patch list sorted by category?). But indeed, sometimes more detailed graphics and/or parameter lists say more.

I also have thinking about a sort of offline text file containing more information about patches, but I think synchronization between the actual PCG file can be a problem for that.

[jimknopf]

No worries, the present pcg-concept is fine as it is, and the editor thing is something else, and single device related.

Still I really hope, that Korg will support this great little synth with additional patch libraries not too far in time (like Orgin, Access and others do), and with an update (even at a price) of the librarian to a graphical editor later.

I hear many positive comments about the KK from keyboarders who tried it at Musikmesse, and many appreciate the flexible (filter models) and really vivid, analog-like sound.