POLL: how many exprienced m50 freezing?
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auralplane
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:38 am
- Location: ON, Canada
OK, to fill in a hole, YES... the 88 keyboard has the same problem.
I've had the boards replaced and internal power board modified, and just the other night... lockup!
I had 1.0.5 on the machine until recently (after the boards were replaced it went back to 1.0.5).
I upgraded to 1.1.0 in the last month or so. I had one other mini-lock up not too long ago, and now solid lockup, reboot rendered the control boards useless and rebooting again cleared the failure.
This does get worse and more frequent as time goes on until you can no longer boot the keyboard to a useable state.
Korg has repaired everything up until this point, but still no love with the keyboard. I've contacted them again to see what is left to do. I'm unhappy. I should be able to trust my keyboard not to fail like this on stage outside a power failure in the building.
I can see a $200 keyboard having these glitches, but not an $1800 keyboard.
R.
I've had the boards replaced and internal power board modified, and just the other night... lockup!
I had 1.0.5 on the machine until recently (after the boards were replaced it went back to 1.0.5).
I upgraded to 1.1.0 in the last month or so. I had one other mini-lock up not too long ago, and now solid lockup, reboot rendered the control boards useless and rebooting again cleared the failure.
This does get worse and more frequent as time goes on until you can no longer boot the keyboard to a useable state.
Korg has repaired everything up until this point, but still no love with the keyboard. I've contacted them again to see what is left to do. I'm unhappy. I should be able to trust my keyboard not to fail like this on stage outside a power failure in the building.
I can see a $200 keyboard having these glitches, but not an $1800 keyboard.
R.
Regards,
Auralplane
Auralplane
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alfredokiwi
- Senior Member
- Posts: 268
- Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:23 am
My point of view about the issue
I wanted to buy a used Korg M50 and after reading the information about the issues on the M50 I decide to stay with the old technology. I´m not only a musician, also I´m technician in electronics and computer system analyst. On the past I worked with SMD technology and know the main problems around the production of boards.
My opinion about the issue that face the M50 is the heat up temperature on the chips (PCM DSP & CPU). To explain this in more detail I put some pictures.
First the picture of the M3 PCM sound engine board (because I don't found a pic of the M50 put this one). Both keyboards (M50, M3) use the same sound engine with BGA chips for the PCM DSP (the big chip) and microprocessor (the smaller) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_grid_array
And here the picture of the older TR, this board use TQFP chips (big chip on the left side PCM engine and smaller on the right side the microprocessor) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TQFP
The soldering process of surface mount devices (SMD) is not easy. In the case of the TR/Triton boards after soldering process corrections can be made by the manufacturer if a pin lead is not properly soldered because the Thin Quad Flat Pack array has the pins outside.., but the Ball Grid Array (the chips on M50, M3, PA500, Pa3X) has the pins below the chip and the check out of soldering errors is not possible by eye because the pins are not visible (X-ray technology is used for BGA soldering Q&C but is to expensive http://www.ge-mcs.com/en/phoenix-xray/a ... pcbas.html). Another problem on BGA is the small lead (or soldering area) because the solder paste quantity is reduced compared to TQFP, and if the solder dispensing was not properly performed the chip operation will be erratic due insufficient solder paste. This means that the soldering quality control on BGA chips (M50, M3) is more complicated.
An electronic component when heats up produce forces due its expansion and if the pin leads are not properly soldered the component start to fails due suddenly disconnection. This is one of the main reason of failures on computer motherboards when a component after heat up starts to fail (turn on time), another reason can be a failure on the logic core but this can be happen in few quantities because the chips are tested before soldering.
A soldering issue can go wrong leading to random hangs up to the destroy of the component itself because the suddenly disconnection of the leads force the devices to operate abnormally.
On my TR88 I have installed passive coolers for the microprocessor and the PCM DSP chip because I have experienced some hangs ups. After this mod the keyboard works without troubles. When a heated component dissipate its heat on the circuit board problems on the other devices (flash RAM and ROM memories) can appear. For example heat affects the data retention on flash devices (firmware). Chips manufacturer articles in internet explains the importance on lowering the operational temperature to avoid functional failures.
I put this information as reference, I´m not an expert and my opinion can be wrong. Only I want to share my point of view after reading the issues on the M50.
My opinion about the issue that face the M50 is the heat up temperature on the chips (PCM DSP & CPU). To explain this in more detail I put some pictures.
First the picture of the M3 PCM sound engine board (because I don't found a pic of the M50 put this one). Both keyboards (M50, M3) use the same sound engine with BGA chips for the PCM DSP (the big chip) and microprocessor (the smaller) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_grid_array
And here the picture of the older TR, this board use TQFP chips (big chip on the left side PCM engine and smaller on the right side the microprocessor) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TQFP
The soldering process of surface mount devices (SMD) is not easy. In the case of the TR/Triton boards after soldering process corrections can be made by the manufacturer if a pin lead is not properly soldered because the Thin Quad Flat Pack array has the pins outside.., but the Ball Grid Array (the chips on M50, M3, PA500, Pa3X) has the pins below the chip and the check out of soldering errors is not possible by eye because the pins are not visible (X-ray technology is used for BGA soldering Q&C but is to expensive http://www.ge-mcs.com/en/phoenix-xray/a ... pcbas.html). Another problem on BGA is the small lead (or soldering area) because the solder paste quantity is reduced compared to TQFP, and if the solder dispensing was not properly performed the chip operation will be erratic due insufficient solder paste. This means that the soldering quality control on BGA chips (M50, M3) is more complicated.
An electronic component when heats up produce forces due its expansion and if the pin leads are not properly soldered the component start to fails due suddenly disconnection. This is one of the main reason of failures on computer motherboards when a component after heat up starts to fail (turn on time), another reason can be a failure on the logic core but this can be happen in few quantities because the chips are tested before soldering.
A soldering issue can go wrong leading to random hangs up to the destroy of the component itself because the suddenly disconnection of the leads force the devices to operate abnormally.
On my TR88 I have installed passive coolers for the microprocessor and the PCM DSP chip because I have experienced some hangs ups. After this mod the keyboard works without troubles. When a heated component dissipate its heat on the circuit board problems on the other devices (flash RAM and ROM memories) can appear. For example heat affects the data retention on flash devices (firmware). Chips manufacturer articles in internet explains the importance on lowering the operational temperature to avoid functional failures.
I put this information as reference, I´m not an expert and my opinion can be wrong. Only I want to share my point of view after reading the issues on the M50.
Last edited by alfredokiwi on Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:39 am, edited 5 times in total.
i hate to dissapoint you guys, but i have an 88-key, and i do have the same problem, i just recently joined the forum to try and find solutions...jerryv wrote:There has been some speculation that this problem may be limited to the m50-61. It would be interesting to hear if the 73s or 88s ever experience this issue ..
Oh, and I just wanted to find out, where can i get the software updates for the M50, i don't know which version I have right now, but maybe a software update might also help.C-mor wrote:i hate to dissapoint you guys, but i have an 88-key, and i do have the same problem, i just recently joined the forum to try and find solutions...jerryv wrote:There has been some speculation that this problem may be limited to the m50-61. It would be interesting to hear if the 73s or 88s ever experience this issue ..
When the board boots up, the OS version is displayed on the splash screen.
The latest updates can be found on KORG's web site:
www.korg.com
The latest updates can be found on KORG's web site:
www.korg.com
KORG Kronos2-61, Yamaha Motif ES6, KORG Minilogue, Farfisa VIP233, Axiom 49, BOSS RT-20, Neo Ventilator
andy-baum.com
andy-baum.com
I have the M-50 73, with the 1.1.0 OS, and it has started to freeze up, was recoverable for a brief while, however, is totally unplayable, totally freezing all the time. I have been gigging with it, and what ever they are going to do with it, I need it done quickly. Would accept a credit of some sort for a Kronus,,,,,,It is a sad event with this instrument.
Greg Cooper
Total cases are 20-something. People that don't have issues probably won't bother to vote, but people with issues probably will want to be heard.
As discussed in an earlier thread, the problem would be isolated to an early batch. People should post their serial numbers (in that thread) to get a clue for this issue.
As discussed in an earlier thread, the problem would be isolated to an early batch. People should post their serial numbers (in that thread) to get a clue for this issue.
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michelkeijzers
- Approved Merchant
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This starts to look like the keybed Kronos problem.
Btw, I would recommend the 61 to anyone who is on a low budget and understands the limitations.
Btw, I would recommend the 61 to anyone who is on a low budget and understands the limitations.
Developer of the free PCG file managing application for most Korg workstations: PCG Tools, see https://www.kronoshaven.com/pcgtools/