Soundquest Editor jumble

Broadwave · Post by **Broadwave** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:36 pm

I've spent another day locked away in my room... while the standalone editor is (almost) working, and I can happily spend hours twiddling, the AU plug-in is er...um... It seriously impedes my workflow - waiting for screen re-renders, lock-ups on the Kronos (for some reason the Kronos screen showed MIDI data was being received when it wasn't - had to reboot, as it wouldn't respond to anything), sudden disappearance of the editor screen(!) and the inability to record any CC data from the editor, which I would have thought a must, otherwise what's the point?

From what I gather, the plug-in should only be used to set-up the Kronos, so that when you load a song into your DAW, the editor sends the correct patches/combis etc. which I've always been able to do.

I don't know what to think anymore, I waited so long for this and it's just not what I thought it would be, maybe I expected too much.

Tired and narky... need tea!

Lou · Post by **Lou** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:07 pm

Kronik wrote:
From what I gather, the plug-in should only be used to set-up the Kronos, so that when you load a song into your DAW, the editor sends the correct patches/combis etc. which I've always been able to do.

I don't know what to think anymore, I waited so long for this and it's just not what I thought it would be, maybe I expected too much.

Tired and narky... need tea!

I couldn't agree with you more. I pretty much use it for total recall and minor tweaking, and even then it slows me down. Very sad that KORGs mother ship of today has an editor so far substandard to the M3.

Soundquest, if you are reading this, by no means am I knocking you. I realize a tremendous amount of work went into this and is appreciated. Perhaps if you were to have taken a look at how the M3 editor functions, I'm sure you would agree. Hopefully, there will be improvements to come?
By no means am I ungratefull, but I guess I too was expecting a little more in means of function, speed and reliability.
As of today, my ranting ends here. Thanks for listening.

lurig33 · Post by **lurig33** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:12 pm

I just found out a very interesting thing, I had a lot of trouble getting the Kronos Editor to start on a fairly new installed Mac Pro, I installed all midi drivers, reinstalled etc. Then I looked in the Debug log and there I read that there was some kind of problem with Adobe Flash?!?

I installed Flash and ta dad it works!

If it uses flash, could´t that explain a lot of the issues, like 64 bit support and slow performance

EJ2 · Post by **EJ2** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:35 pm

I was looking forward to the KRONOS Editor being developed and produced in similar fashion to the M3 Editor software, which I find much superior. What happened?

RonF · Post by **RonF** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:09 pm

Kronik wrote:and the inability to record any CC data from the editor, which I would have thought a must, otherwise what's the point?

I don't think recording CC data from the plug-in is the point in any way. The plug-in uses SysEx data to communicate with the Kronos. The point of the plug-in is to insert it onto a midi track in your DAW which controls the Kronos hardware (assigned to the Kronos port and channel), and then this allows you to automate any Kronos parameter in the plugin (basically ALL of them) which is addressable by your DAW's built in plug-in automation system. You don't record the "CC" data (SysEx data really).....you automate the plug-in so it sends the corresponding SysEx data to communicate with the Kronos hardware, so that such parameter changes are made in real time as the DAW plays and runs through your plug-in automation "moves".

Lou · Post by **Lou** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:58 am

RonF wrote:
I don't think recording CC data from the plug-in is the point in any way. The plug-in uses SysEx data to communicate with the Kronos. The point of the plug-in is to insert it onto a midi track in your DAW which controls the Kronos hardware (assigned to the Kronos port and channel), and then this allows you to automate any Kronos parameter in the plugin (basically ALL of them) which is addressable by your DAW's built in plug-in automation system. You don't record the "CC" data (SysEx data really).....you automate the plug-in so it sends the corresponding SysEx data to communicate with the Kronos hardware, so that such parameter changes are made in real time as the DAW plays and runs through your plug-in automation "moves".

Thanks for clarifying that Ron.
Tonight I put down a track and then applied some volume and panning to the track. On playback the editor's volume and panning visually duplicated my moves.
Now for the hell of me, I cannot repeat the process. I've tried everything but no go?
There's no info anywhere as to what needs to take place for this to be. I was in Logic at the time, not Live.
What is odd is that I always have communication between editor and Kronos in both directions, so while recording and moving an editor parameter, you would think it would record, but doesn't.
If I move a parameter on Kronos it gets recorded, but the editor doesn't show it.. confused.

RonF · Post by **RonF** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:06 am

You should focus on the *automation* capabilities of your DAW....rather than the plug-in, or trying to "record" the plug-in or mouse movements you make on the plug-in in real time as midi events. Whether its volume, pan, or sweeping or changing a synth parameter on the Kronos.......you need to 'record' those moves as *automation*.....NOT midi data (of course you perhaps could record midi CC data, but that defeats the tight integration of the plug-in).

The way the Kronos plug-in works is similar to any plug in. Take Omnisphere for example.....in Logic, to "record your moves" in Omnisphere, you must record automation events of those parameters. Live is the same way. You turn-on Automation on a track. Select the parameter you wish to automate (or simply grab a hardware controller you have set up for a parameter, or simply grab a software controller with your mouse), and edit away. The DAW (not the plug-in) records those moves as automation events. Then on playback, assuming you have automation turned on, it will repeat those exact "moves".

The plug-in itself serves only to compile all of the synth's available parameters into one "container" that you can easily reference, both visually and as automation selections.

The reason your DAW is recording your moves from the Kronos hardware directly is because its a hardware controller and those moves are being sent via *midi* into the DAW which is getting conventionally recorded as midi events.

But the plug-in itself gets recorded as automation events, and the plug-in *sends* midi, in the reverse direction, back to the Kronos hardware so that it can respond to those automation events. In essence you are mixing apples and oranges when trying to record midi *from* the plug-in. You need to send midi FROM the plug-in back out TO the Kronos (which is the actual sound source, and the actual noise maker, and the edits you make in the plug-in actually need to affect the hardware to make any noise). You can do this by manually using the mouse on the plug-in to sweep or adjust parameters. But to record such manual "mouse moves" in your DAW....you record automation events.

Hope that makes more sense.

Ron

ScoobyDoo555 · Post by **ScoobyDoo555** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:58 am

Except that it doesn't totally do that Ron.

I had a PolySix plugin from Kronos up in Logic. Stuck on the automation, recorded some filter moves.

Played it back and no filter moves played back.

And that is with the plugin fully operational (and the editor fwiw).......

I'm more than happy to have another go at this (and be proven wrong) as I only messed with this once, noticed that it didn't work correctly (in my eyes), went through the rest of the SLOW operation of everything, and uninstalled it.

I've gone back to MIDI I/O rather than plugin, and have my filter/CC changes automating nicely.

Dan

Vlad_77 · Post by **Vlad_77** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:12 am

I haven't downloaded the editor yet but what I am reading here does worry me. 4 seconds to change a patch among other things?

It's a pity that Sound Tower didn't do the Kronos editor. Their editor for Kurzweil is in my estimation SO very easy to use and I have had zero issues with it and as a bonus, V.A.S.T. is beginning to make sense to me.

But I also want to add that I think it's unfair to blast Korg or blame all of this on them - unless Korg owns SoundQuest. So I will sound like a fanboy here but:

How many here that have a Kronos couldn't afford the OASYS when it was released? Yes, Korg cut corners but guess what? You HAVE an OASYS now in Kronos and a hardware workstation that blows the current workstations out of this universe.

Put it in perspective please folks and look back at what Fantom G buyers had to deal with. I am not bashing the G folks; many people are making great music with it, but, let's compare the two upon release:

All hardware workstation functions complete and present? Yes in Kronos, NO in Fantom G. (The G for some odd reason was released without multisampling, while its predecessor the X had it)

Rapid company response with other issues? Korg once again wins here with two updates thus far plus addressing the keybed issue on the 73 and 88 key models. G owners never got the promised 2.0 update. What they got were band aid fixes and the G has flourished because of its users - not the company.

The big selling point for Kronos is its multi-engine technology and let's face it, Korg delivered. The big selling point for the G was ARX. It failed. In its infinite wisdom, Roland provided only TWO (!) ARX expansion slots. What's more, promises of extremely accurate acoustic SuperNatural sounds were not fulfilled. Roland's first ARX offering was for EPs - clearly NOT an acoustic instrument.

Rolands are excellent keyboards - I own two now and have owned MANY in the past. They are built like tanks and my Fantom X has survived all manner of rough handling by roadies and God knows what else. While some would argue that Kronos is not built like a Roland tank, I wouldn't exactly call the 61 key version fragile.

So the editor is not what everyone expected and I agree that it's a shame. But, Kronos at release day outperformed Roland's flagship workstation, it still does, and always will. I have faith that Korg and SoundQuest will fix the editor. I also remind myself that the editor is FREE. If the software had cost Korg users €250.00 THEN I would say get the pitchforks and torches.

It WILL get better.

keekma · Post by **keekma** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:48 am

Vlad_77 wrote:I haven't downloaded the editor yet but what I am reading here does worry me. 4 seconds to change a patch among other things?

It's a pity that Sound Tower didn't do the Kronos editor. Their editor for Kurzweil is in my estimation SO very easy to use and I have had zero issues with it and as a bonus, V.A.S.T. is beginning to make sense to me.

But I also want to add that I think it's unfair to blast Korg or blame all of this on them - unless Korg owns SoundQuest. So I will sound like a fanboy here but:

How many here that have a Kronos couldn't afford the OASYS when it was released? Yes, Korg cut corners but guess what? You HAVE an OASYS now in Kronos and a hardware workstation that blows the current workstations out of this universe.

Put it in perspective please folks and look back at what Fantom G buyers had to deal with. I am not bashing the G folks; many people are making great music with it, but, let's compare the two upon release:

All hardware workstation functions complete and present? Yes in Kronos, NO in Fantom G. (The G for some odd reason was released without multisampling, while its predecessor the X had it)

Rapid company response with other issues? Korg once again wins here with two updates thus far plus addressing the keybed issue on the 73 and 88 key models. G owners never got the promised 2.0 update. What they got were band aid fixes and the G has flourished because of its users - not the company.

The big selling point for Kronos is its multi-engine technology and let's face it, Korg delivered. The big selling point for the G was ARX. It failed. In its infinite wisdom, Roland provided only TWO (!) ARX expansion slots. What's more, promises of extremely accurate acoustic SuperNatural sounds were not fulfilled. Roland's first ARX offering was for EPs - clearly NOT an acoustic instrument.

Rolands are excellent keyboards - I own two now and have owned MANY in the past. They are built like tanks and my Fantom X has survived all manner of rough handling by roadies and God knows what else. While some would argue that Kronos is not built like a Roland tank, I wouldn't exactly call the 61 key version fragile.

So the editor is not what everyone expected and I agree that it's a shame. But, Kronos at release day outperformed Roland's flagship workstation, it still does, and always will. I have faith that Korg and SoundQuest will fix the editor. I also remind myself that the editor is FREE. If the software had cost Korg users €250.00 THEN I would say get the pitchforks and torches.

It WILL get better.

+1

By the way, I used the editor in Cubase for recording a song, and it is working fine. A patch change does not take 4 seconds in my case. It changes as quick as the Kronos itself. It is nice tot edit the song and with the same mouse change the parameters of the Kronos. And that works in real time. I, for now, miss the FX copy options of the Kronos. And I understand it is not what we expected, but it has its function for integration in a DAW.

SoundQuest · Post by **SoundQuest** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:19 pm

4 seconds to change a patch

I assume that this person is using OS X Lion. Lion has known MIDI over USB transfer issues where the data is transferred at MIDI speed instead of USB speed. This happens only when transferring data from the editor to the instrument and not for transfers from the Kronos to the editor.

This issue is not limited to the Kronos as we have seen it with other MIDI hardware as well. It's just that the information Kronos's transfers is so much larger - becuase it does so much more - that you notice it where it is not noticable with other hardware. This is an issue that is outside the editors control.

Also, please note that this issue is limited 10.7 (Lion). Previous versions of OS X work as expected as does Windows.

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:28 pm

SoundQuest wrote:
4 seconds to change a patch
I assume that this person is using OS X Lion. Lion has known MIDI over USB transfer issues where the data is transferred at MIDI speed instead of USB speed. This happens only when transferring data from the editor to the instrument and not for transfers from the Kronos to the editor.

This issue is not limited to the Kronos as we have seen it with other MIDI hardware as well. It's just that the information Kronos's transfers is so much larger - becuase it does so much more - that you notice it where it is not noticable with other hardware. This is an issue that is outside the editors control.

Also, please note that this issue is limited 10.7 (Lion). Previous versions of OS X work as expected as does Windows.

i've said that it took 4 seconds to change a patch. I'm using an I7 windows 7 64 bit, 8 Gigabyte machine to test this. But that 4 seconds was caused because i double clicked the preset in the bank manager instead of single clicking it. However, 4 seconds response time with double clicking is way to long. I will repeat my original response with a lot more info below:
--------------------------------------------------

SoundQuest wrote:I saw one reference that it took 4 seconds to audition a patch. Yes, it will if you are using the MIDI ports instead of USB2. The Kronos is unlike any other instrument out there, the data sizes are huge and transfer times over MIDI or USB 1 ports make things pretty much unusable. Normal patch auditioning as tested on many, many computer systems is a fraction of a second. Again, there isn't anything obvious that we can do here. A great deal of time was spent optimizing transfer speeds without sacrificing reliability of the transfers.

I was the one that mentioned that. I'm using USB2 so i've did some extra testing.

The amount of time it takes to audition sounds is between 4 and 12 second depending on if you are in the program or combi screen. I've got this behaviour because i'm used to double clicking, now i've discovered that when you single click a preset in the Bank manager (and only there!) then only a program change is sent and it is instant, so no delay there.

When double click the item a sysex string is sent which causes a delay of 4 seconds for a program and between 10 or 12 seconds for a combi.
Also when selecting combi's from the main combi screen (the arrow behind the name) the 10 seconds wait is steady. Only in the bank manager it works instantly.

I can understand that it takes time to sent al these sysex messages when you double click or select an item. But those are small messages, you keep saying that you need to sent up till 50 Megabyte which i can believe if you sent the full system, but only a program or combi shouldn't have 50 megabytes of sysex strings (that's a lot of text).

And even so, the speed of USB2 is 480 Mb which is 60 megabytes per second, so why does changing a combi more then 10 seconds, you can sent 600 megabytes in 10 seconds over an USB2 line when you have an optimal connection.

I'm not trying to be negative in any way, but i really can't believe how it's working at the moment considering how all my other editors behave. I simply don't get it?

Or am i the only one that has this problem (considering that you tested it on lots of systems)?

Maybe it's a setting i've missed in the kronos or on the computer?

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:42 pm

Indeed it should not be necessary to send 43 MB, because that are all program and combi banks and set lists (and more).

About the speed of USB, there is also some overhead, also some overhead in MIDI messages, but that overhead is not something like a factor 10 (or 90%).

I don't have exact numbers here, but it can be searched very easily by checking the MIDI System Exclusive document (on DVD 2 of the Kronos DVDs).

Also if the response time is really need to be 4 s, it would be nice if there is some feedback (like a waiting cursor or something moving to show the system is not unresponsive).

SoundQuest · Post by **SoundQuest** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:38 am

A program audition is 3.5k to 5.5k depending on the type of program. A Combi is 8-9k in size. The 50MB I have been referring to is a complete system dump, something entirely different. The time to audition a program or combi here is a fraction of a second.

I suspect you are the only or one of a small group of people that this is happeneing to. The communication "rules" for the Kronos requires that after sending a bulk dump, the software waits until it gets an ACK from the instrument. If the software doesn't receive an ACK, it will eventually time out. In this case, it sounds as though the ACK, assuming there is one, is not getting to the software. As a result, the software is waiting the full time out period every time.

If you have a secondary computer, you might want to try installing the software there and see if you get the same behaviour.

SoundQuest · Post by **SoundQuest** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:39 am

One other question, do you have the MIDI ports connected to the computer with a MIDI interface?