Fair solution after service nightmare

Ojustaboo · Post by **Ojustaboo** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:09 pm

One UK shop advertised they only sell Kronos with the updated contacts, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't do that if it was such a small problem

http://www.synthesisers.co.uk/news/Apr- ... ilable.htm

and them doing that in April and Korg sending me out the old ones in October, well that's bad service from Korg, no argument.

Again I love my Kronos, but trying to blame people like me for telling others how annoyed we are that Korg is still doing this, rather than blaming Korg for not doing as SanderXpander suggests, well that's your choice, but I think your totally wrong.

MarPabl · Post by **MarPabl** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:26 pm

Of course this still is a big issue. And there are many owners who had this problem (included myself after 3 replacements on a 6 month period)

Kronos 88 and RH3 keyboard faulty

Really I thought this issue would disappear by now. This just shows how poorly has Korg managed this situation.

So sadly we must still say that buying a Kronos 88 is a bet

jazlover · Post by **jazlover** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:59 pm

Again I love my Kronos, but trying to blame people like me for telling others how annoyed we are that Korg is still doing this, rather than blaming Korg for not doing as SanderXpander suggests, well that's your choice, but I think your totally wrong.

It is just like spending your life in the Alzheimers ward....."I have heard this story before...actually ten times in the last hour." The one note samba again! I am sympathetic until the whinning and bellyaching starts over again.

How do you "annoyed" people do anything creative? Can you.... Will you help this community with using the tools we all have (as they are)? Without reliving this daily melodrama. This forum is not arbitration site. Korg is a business and not a wishing well. Next time you wish to retell the story...try clicking your heels together three times instead and say to yourself "Korg will fix my life"! \

Please, please, please move on!

Saxifraga · Post by **Saxifraga** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:11 pm

jazlover wrote:...

Please, please, please move on!

The problem is not us whiners, but Korg not calling back all those faulty units, maybe hoping not all users will recognize the problems as a product fault.

I for example thought for 2 months that I am making a mistake. I even thought I am hearing ghosts, because I read to much about this problem.

Korg should do the same like any other manufacturer would do: Look with batch was faulty and recall them all for testing and repair.

If my Korg was a car and I had an accident with my Kronos, Korg would even have to pay for the hurt they caused.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:06 pm

Saxifraga wrote: Korg should do the same like any other manufacturer would do: Look with batch was faulty and recall them all for testing and repair.

If my Korg was a car and I had an accident with my Kronos, Korg would even have to pay for the hurt they caused.

Cars kill people when they go wrong.
The Kronos problems do not represent a significant threat to anyone's health.

That is the usual procedure for recalls - only if the defect presents a risk to users. Otherwise, if they can live with the defect then no problem. Fix it if they complain.
Recalls are also very expensive and have in the past brought entire companies down..

This is why the comparison between synthesizers and cars can only be drawn so far.

Ojustaboo · Post by **Ojustaboo** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:09 pm

jazlover wrote:
Again I love my Kronos, but trying to blame people like me for telling others how annoyed we are that Korg is still doing this, rather than blaming Korg for not doing as SanderXpander suggests, well that's your choice, but I think your totally wrong.
It is just like spending your life in the Alzheimers ward....."I have heard this story before...actually ten times in the last hour." The one note samba again! I am sympathetic until the whinning and bellyaching starts over again.

How do you "annoyed" people do anything creative? Can you.... Will you help this community with using the tools we all have (as they are)? Without reliving this daily melodrama. This forum is not arbitration site. Korg is a business and not a wishing well. Next time you wish to retell the story...try clicking your heels together three times instead and say to yourself "Korg will fix my life"! \

Please, please, please move on!

Maybe if just this very month I hadn't experienced it with a brand new machine, then I might be sympathetic to your viewpoint.

But to accuse me of being melodramatic when all I've done is recount what I personally have experienced this very month, and me giving the viewpoint after all this time that I shouldn't have to have gone through this, well, you can be as sarcastic and as rude as you want, you can kiss Korgs backside as much as you want, fact is your right, korg is a business, but they have severely damages their business with the way they've handled this situation and if they had done it properly, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation now.

I also think you are completely missing what me and others are saying. We are saying to Korg (and yes Korg staff do read this forum) that they are still damaging their reputation and we are telling them to get their act together, it shouldn't be happening after all this time.

I want Korg to thrive, but after what I've gone through this last month, again I cannot say with certainty if anyone asks, that the problem has been sorted, and Korg NEEDS to draw a line under this NOW.

You moan about people keep bringing this up, maybe just maybe if it didn't STILL keep happening, we wouldn't do so?

Still, carry on blaming the customer rather than Korg, I've come to expect it from certain members.

Ojustaboo · Post by **Ojustaboo** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:25 pm

X-Trade wrote:
Saxifraga wrote:
jazlover wrote:...

Please, please, please move on!
The problem is not us whiners, but Korg not calling back all those faulty units, maybe hoping not all users will recognize the problems as a product fault.

I for example thought for 2 months that I am making a mistake. I even thought I am hearing ghosts, because I read to much about this problem.

Korg should do the same like any other manufacturer would do: Look with batch was faulty and recall them all for testing and repair.

If my Korg was a car and I had an accident with my Kronos, Korg would even have to pay for the hurt they caused.
Cars kill people when they go wrong.
The Kronos problems do not represent a significant threat to anyone's health.

That is the usual procedure for recalls - only if the defect presents a risk to users. Otherwise, if they can live with the defect then no problem. Fix it if they complain.
Recalls are also very expensive and have in the past brought entire companies down..

This is why the comparison between synthesizers and cars can only be drawn so far.

While that is true, when it becomes a big enough problem for everyone to be talking about it as this has since the Kronos release (not just talking about this forum) to ignore the seriousness of the problem and how the public at large perceive the problem is a huge mistake by Korg in my opinion.

I have an original Xbox 360. I've never ever experienced the famous red ring of death, many many people never experienced it.

I wouldn't be surprised if you scaled down the 360 sales to that of the Kronos, they end up at a pretty similar failure rate.

But a fair few people did have the problem, what did Microsoft do, acknowledge the problem, give people a free extended warranty should that particular problem materialise, and it put peoples minds at rest and it's become the best selling console of it's generation.

What did Korg do, try to make out it wasn't a very big problem at all yet many on this very forum have had the same problem on their 2nd and 3rd replacement Kronos.

All Korg need to have done was to say there was a problem with the manufacturing of some of the keyboard contacts at one of their plants, it's now been rectified but should anyone buy their Kronos and this problem materialise for the next 3 years, Korg will pick it up repair it and return it all at Korgs expense and it would have put many peoples mind at rest.

At the same time Korg make sure all the stock in their warehouse has new contacts fitted. It's not like they had the amount of 360's that were sold, they could easily upgrade their current Kronos stock to the new contacts, then it would have meant I wouldn't have been on here whining for a start, and any retailer getting new stock in from Korg could do so sure that the problem has been fixed.

Instead, a virtual denial that the problem is that bad yet every single music keyboard forum is awash with threads about it.

Meanwhile Korg US and Korg UK cant even agree on which contacts are bad. They really only have themselves to blame for this still to be a problem now.

So I have my replacement Kronos with pink contacts that Korg UK assure me are upgraded, but users on here tell me Korg US tells them the opposite.

And no official announcement whatsoever.

Can I say I'm happy with that service from Korg after spending £2700, no I honesty cant.

Can I say I'm glad I brought the Kronos, yes I can I love it, butI shouldn't have this worry at the back of my mind and the only reason I have is due to the way Korg has handled it.

And it seems when I and others discuss that this shouldn't be the case, others feel they have the right to accuse us of being the ones in the wrong and telling us we should move on. It's annoying to say the least.

Mikeeee · Post by **Mikeeee** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:57 pm

Good morning all,
Its acloudy still morning here time 0923hrs.

I feel now that,after reading every thread/topic on this forum and the latest above about the KRONOS I feel a need to write down for you, my thoughts about this issue and the way you are expressing it.

I am sure some of you will be annoyed after you have finished reading what I have to say. Please note, I will be trying to generalise and am not pointing the finger at anyone in particular so try not to take anything I write personally.

First, regarding your thoughts about what KORG has done or not done.
Unless you are employed by KORG and are privy to all the factual information about this, much of what you have written is not really very helpful. I hope you have the ability to understand why.

You talk of members complaining about this problem. Yes I tend to agree but several have actually not done that, but have given the facts, from their own experience with the intention to finding out what the answer to the problems they have faced, without "complaining"
I hope that I am seen in this light because being a "Technician" (Freelance) All I am interested in is the solution. and I get lot of hugs at home.
Complaining on a forum, I think, is rather pointless unless of course, it makes you feel better and you may get a few hugs.

Then we have members who get involved in these discussions stating things as facts, when in my opinion, are often false.
That is the problem on any forums. They attract many kinds of people, some who can get away with their false actions/writings, who, if you knew them in real life you would have nothing to do with them and go out of your way to avoid them.

An example:-
about 18months ago there were a couple of threads from someone who talked about about their KRONOS issue which sounded similar to mine. I mailed them about ten days ago and asked for details without referring to their 2 threads. I got a reply about 3 days later. "I am sorry I cannot help you. I don't own a kronos".

My Comment about my Technician.
I need to qualify that he is not just a Korg tech but repairs just about every brand of electronic keyboard ever made and also, it is quite common for techs to say they haven't heard of a problem about a particular issue. Have we not all lied sometime, in our lives because we feel we don't want to upset someone.

As a "tech" I have done it. I usually add a rider, "of course this is no problem for me and I will have it fixed in no time"

About these Kronos issues especially the keybed one. From Korgs point of view, I suspect it may be considered very minor, when you think of all the different model keyboards they make.

An example of Kronos issue being no big deal:-
I have just dismantled a Roland 88 and cleaned/replaced some of the rubber contact strips which I think are very similar to the Kronos. Come in units of 1 to 6.
Opening up. 4 minutes.
Removing 46 keys. 13 min.
Extracting any dust present with air extracter. 2 min
Removing contact strips relevant to those keys,cleaning with carbon Tetrocloride an replacing several strips with new ones. 1 hour 24 min.
Reassembling everything. 17 min.
Testing. 5 min
Total time for labour 2 hours.
By far the biggest cost is the time/labour. In my case $120 per hour.
The 6 unit rubber strips cost me about $4 each.
Most of it could have been done blindfolded.
Its no big deal from an outsiders point of view.
But for the owner totally the opposite.

From my point of view I would much prefer for members to keep to to point and facts which the forum moderaters have tried to instigate several times instead of a lot of waffle. that some of you tend to do.

regards from,
Mikeeee.

P.S. I hope you don't think I have been waffling

Meaning of the word "waffle"
Evasive or vague speech or writing.

cello · Post by **cello** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:49 pm

Basic point seems to be; a keyboard of the Kronos calibre should not have failures. It is not acceptable to say 'Oh dear, I got a duff one'.

Korg should have done better. And when the problems arose they should have done better than they did.

They should have also done better when they killed the OASYS (I know, off topic!).

Since buying my OASYS, I've bought two new Rolands for around £6,000. Both flawless. Both have 5 years warranty as standard (in UK anyway).

Kronos is NOT flawless and does not come with that kind of warranty.

Now you can argue as much as you want about whether it is acceptable or not to complain about a Kronos not working or not or whining or waffling.

Point being - their competition does not have these problems (based on my experience and on the many users I communicate with regarding these two keyboards).

So go right ahead and debate whether someone is right to whine or waffle or not - the true situation is, there should be no debate at all because the keyboard should work and there should not be (for this calibre) recurring discussions about 3 keyboards to be supplied to sort out a problem.

Even if it is mentioned twice (and not the many times we have witnessed it here), then Korg have failed. Big style. Irrespective of the %age - a keyboard of this published quality should have no issues for ALL users - perhaps other than the possible component failure which of course does happen.

Mikeeee · Post by **Mikeeee** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:25 pm

thankyou Cello,

To everyone else, Now you can see my point of view, I hope, it just goes on and on and to "cello" really, to say who should or should not be doing what to etc, is it your place to say that?, or mine or anyone else unless you were involved in the manufacture or some other close link to Korg/Kronos.

I suspect cello, reading between the lines doesn't even own a Kronos.

OMG I am getting caught up in the waffling.
From now on I will try to keep to facts and reality. No more what ifs and buts and shoulds and should nots.

regards,
Mikeeee.

Ojustaboo · Post by **Ojustaboo** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:54 am

Your entitled to your viewpoint/opinion mikeeee as much as anyone else.

I personally disagree with you though.

You don't have to work for a company to be able to see how badly they have handled a problem, some companies stand out from the crowd when problems happen, others choose to do what korg has done and wonder why their reputation is damaged.

I don't need any close ties to the development etc of the Kronos to know when I have a brand spanking new model picked a few weeks ago from Korgs own warehouse, opened up by Korg to do my upgrade, and me asking in advance that while they do this, make sure I have the newer contacts, to state as FACT that 13 months after the problem first started to be heavily complained about on various forums, I shouldn't have received a Kronos with the old contacts and the original keybed problem being present.

Cello doesn't need to own a Kronos to say this shouldn't be happening, or to say we should get a longer warranty, what difference would it make if he actually owned one?

I got pissed off with people in this forum having a go at me for not owning a Kronos a few months ago when I voiced concerns that the problem shouldn't still be happening, I said at the time I was saving up for one but don't see how not owning one made my opinion any less valid.

The fact that this month I actually brought one and all my fears and worries that according to some on this forum I initially had no right to make as I didn't own one, came totally true, backs that up in my opinion.

No one needs to own a product that has a well known fault, to form an opinion on how well the company has dealt with the fault, often people will decide on whether to give their money to one company or another totally based on how people that have had problems, feel the company dealt with it, whether its a car, a tv or a shop.

There's many shops in the UK I won't touch due to the way they handle customers who have problems and some of these I've never ever used nor ever will, and I don't need to use them to get a good picture from the many customer complaints about them on the web (and in some cases consumer TV program's).

Meanwhile there's other shops I'd use and wouldn't give a dam if I had problems due totally to what other people have experienced.

Sure you get a few angry malicious posters, but you can still easily grasp the real way a company deals with its customers from what the majority say.

Fact, this is a Korg forum, independent but still for Korg products. It stands to reason on such a forum, many people will be very big Korg fans. Often such people will ignore what impression the company is really giving the run of the mill user, instead, being so pleased with their particular korg products, and using them for many years, will side with Korg regardless. This is very understandable and happens in many other forums for many different companies.

But many many people in many shops and forums have been put off korg by the way this situations been handled and they don't need to own a Kronos to form that opinion.

Korg has done themselves serious damage and have only themselves to blame and I do state that as fact and again I don't need to be involved in anyway with the manufacturing process to be able to say that as a fact.

Someone posted about the Kronos in another forum only last week asking about the keybed problem. Someone responded that it was sorted months ago. Not in my experience but I dare say if I chose to tell them what I've told people in this forum, some of you would be highly critical of me doing so, even though its 100% the truth.

It's also fact that my replacement Kronos had completely different black keys, texture on them very different to the original. Can't compare the two, newer ones miles better. So there's more than one actual type of RH3 keyboard in Kronos land.

keekma wrote:The black keys are satin and the white are gloss. Just the same as my old piano. The action is more "controlled", firm(? I don't know the English word for what I mean) and there is no more bounce. The keys move slower upwards. But it is still light to play. It is now possible to play very soft. And also to play hard is easier. So I can play with a lot of dynamics.

QuiRobinez wrote: But the most important part of the new keyboard is of course the keyboard action as the user experiences it. And i can tell you, it's fantastic .

Had my original Kronos not had the note cutoff problem and I happened to visit someone who owned a Kronos with my current keybed, and they had bought there's a few months before me, I also wouldn't be happy because the newer keyboard just feels so much more better. This hasn't been mentioned that much, but in my personal opinion, many people who had their contacts replaced, have an inferior keyboard to mine.

I did need to have tried both for a few days to come to that conclusion, whether my opinion is fact, is subjective, but what is fact is there's two different types of keybed out there regardless of contacts.

A reason I am still very nervous about my pink contacts is because no matter what piano sound I try, no matter if I play through hi fi, active monitors or headphones, no matter if I increase the value to +max or -max, I can hear zero mechanical noise. I read things such as

macroenie wrote:
One thing I noticed is that with the german grand (haven´t tried Japanese yet) I started to hear a clicking noise when I play the bass region (hard). When I tune down the mechanical noise this goes away. I´m pretty sure I have not heard this mechanical noise before.

keekma wrote:
I have the same experience with the mechanical noise of the SGX-1. It was not present before the repair. I am very shure. I first thought is was a defect because I didn't hear it before. It seems that the old keybed didn't trigger it
.

QuiRobinez wrote: yes, i have this too on the new board. It's the release noise checkbox that behaves differently i think. Now with the new board, the volume release noise from the keyboard is now modified by the power you release the keys with. Just like you expect it to be.
So when i slowly release a key i hear almost no release noise, when i fast release the key i will hear a louder release noise.

I really like it this way and never noticed this on the old keyboard.
Im used now to the new keyboard and it's a so much better experience then the old keyboard.

So either my ears are playing up (bearing in mind I can hear police sirens etc 5 mins before anyone else in my car, and can hear capacitors making high pitched noises when no one else in the room can hear a thing), I'm doing something wrong (always a big possibility) or my keyboard isn't producing the noises due to the old contacts.

All the above worries me, I want to experience my Kronos to its full capacity, I also want other people buying one to do the same, but based on what's just happened to me, it's fact that October 2012, I had two completely different key beds with completely different action and different textures on the notes, and so far I haven't been able to hear any piano mechanical noise. Add that to the contradictorary info about contact colour from korg US and korg UK, I hope you can understand why I'm still talking about this just 5 days after my replacement arrived and haven't moved on yet like some other posters wish I would.

£2700 for me is the most I've ever spent on one keyboard, in fact I think it's more than double the amount I've paid for any in the past 30 odd years. For that sort of money I don't expect the gamble I have appeared to have taken.

While I respect your thorough way of changing the contacts that takes two hours labour, reading elsewhere on this forum and I see

danmusician wrote:
I watched the tech do it. The entire procedure took less than 20 minutes.

The switches come in strips of several keys. One strip is lifted out, the new one is laid its place. On the 73, he had to cut the strips on each end to fit the number of keys. Seriously, it was quick and simple.

laandodeman wrote:For mine, it took them one hour, including the replacement of the fan and installation of additional RAM.

So either on the Kronos is much simpler to replace the strips (if i read right, you dont need to remove the individual keys at all to replace the kronos contacts) or the people changing them aren't doing a proper job.

Best

Joe