Korg Forums

cminor wrote:
And why should I attach the midi interface, the phone, the cables... when I can push 3 buttons ?
Seq > Rec > Save !
Fast and easy.
As I say, some ideas comes in a second... and go in a half of a second.
So the sequencer is something fast.
just press seq, rec, and play your next hit lines...
untill you unpack the midi port, charge the iphone, the line is gone

Of course, if we speak about workstation with built in sequencer then it easier to press three buttons on it. Then only advantage of separate recording device could be if it allowed easier editing or sending to PC for editing in daw. The second is possible with line 6 recorder. Also it allows replay midi on any synth with midi input (or probably the same device) so you don't need to have your workstation near if you want to listen to it. It happened few times that I used M3 built in sequencer for capturing ideas, but the main problem with M3 is that it doesn't captures your playing (if Karma is used), but instead it captures summed result of karma+your playing, what is not that convenient if you want to edit that later on daw. I think it has been discussed in M3 wish list.

orpheus2006 wrote:Are you sure these can be replaced by sliders and knobs?

The ribbon is just another way to enter midi values by sliding your finger over the ribbon surface. You can do absolutely the same by using the joystick. The kaoss pad is a more complex one, but regardless, there are ways to control those parameters with other hardware.

orpheus2006 wrote:I'd say a workstation like the M3 allows you to produce a huge variety of songs of various music styles. There are other criteria that qualify for a radio song. The way it has been produced, SW or HW, is irrelevant (or of secondary importance).
IMO for voice or real instrument recordings you need a lot more HW (Mics, pre-amps, multi-channel audio interfaces, sound processors) and not just a sequencer. It all really depends on your personal requirements. Workstations have their right to exist.

I'm not saying that workstations doesn't have the right to exist. I'm just sure that their function is obsolete these days. They were a cost effective alternative 15 years ago. Today, with any sound card for 100 dollars you also get a SW sequencer beating the hell out of any workstation sequencer.
When it comes to mics, pre-amps and multichannel audio interfaces, it doesn't matter if you use a SW sequencer or a workstation. You have to pay for that stuff regardless what platform you are using. In fact, multichannel audio interfaces only work on computers. So, you don't even have options if you use a workstation.
For me, the sequencer on a workstation is probably good enough to catch your ideas. Nothing more. I'm not saying that because I'm a software freak.
When it comes to what qualifies for a radio ready song, it has something to do with getting the compression and limiting right. You need a visual feedback on the vu meters and other stuff. All those are things which can't be done on a workstation sequencer at all. It's good enough for posting a song on youtube. Nothing more.
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sani wrote:I'm just sure that their function is obsolete these days. They were a cost effective alternative 15 years ago. Today, with any sound card for 100 dollars you also get a SW sequencer beating the hell out of any workstation sequencer.

You cannot just compare the M3 with a sequencer. What would be a SW/Computer/Masterkeyboard-based solution that would have similar features and a comparable (or better) sound quality and polyphony than the M3?

My guess:
Masterkeyboard 500$
Silent PC that guarantees 120 voice polyphony 800$
Sequencer SW 0$
Sampler SW 100$
Sound Library 200$ (you can easily spend here 1000$ +)
Effect library 200$ (you can easily spend here 1000$ +)
Audio/Midi Interface (with similar number of in/outs, analog+digital) 200$
MIDI/Audio cables to connect everything 20$
Maybe you need a MIDI-Controller, too.
You can easily spend more $$ in all the categories, this is just the minimum to have nearly same sound quality.

So you will hardly spend less than 2000$ having a system that is not integrated, does not have a KARMA function, doesn't have a vocoder, and doesn't have a kaoss-pad like touchscreen. You would also have to spend quite some time for installing, configuring and organizing your system. And it probably would look cheaper, too.
BTW there is no reason why you can't hook up your workstation to a PC.

Hi orpheus,
I'm not quite sure that you get my point.
For me, the sequencer part of the HW Workstation is completely obsolete as a serious platform for producing music. Again, for me...and just the sequencer.
I have still a high opinion about the sound quality and in that regard, a keyboard like the M3 surely still has it's place in a studio. But I would never build my studio arround its sequencer.

Now, regarding your guesses and cost projections:
I agree with the price for the Masterkeyboard. For that price you can even get a hammer action. Converted to the M3, it would be somewhere arround 3000 dollars.
Price for the computer:
since you are calculating with it, may I just for the sake of conversation suggest an iMac which starts at 1200 dollars (Intel Core i3 processor at 3.06 GHz). It's an all in one solution and believe me, it's very quiet. It costs more than what you named as a suggest price, but it comes as a very compact space saving system and even with a wireless keyboard and mouse. No cable mess.
Guarantying 120 voices? That's a relative term. The M3 doesn't guarantee 120 voices! There are 120 oscillators and that doesn't mean you have 120 voices. For the start, a stereo voice gives you 60 voices. And I'm sure, that the mentioned iMac can give you that voices, or any comparable PC these days.
Sequencer Software is not 0$. The Mac comes with a free sequencer (garageband), but I would put here Logic Studio to the list. It costs 500$. It's not only a sequencer (like a spaceship compared to any workstation sequencer), it comes with a vast, and I really mean a vast number of all kind of sounds, most of them very, very good, it comes with a vast number of loops, both midi and audio. It comes with an audio editor and mastering/burning software. It comes with a lot of virtual instruments, from analog to virtual acoustic, meaning organ and e. piano type emulations, with a drum machine...
You really have more than enough to start composing, arranging and producing songs without the need to look further. It's one of the most complete software packages on the market by far.
No need to calculate extra money for a sampler. Logic has it. It's there and unlike the M3 sampler, its not limited to 320 Mb. It even streams directly from the HD.
Effect library?
Absolutely no need to spend extra money here!
There is absolutely any effect you can imagine. Everything. And absolutely nothing is worse in quality compared to effects in a HW workstation. If you think that you have to spend more money on effects, than you will certainly also get a higher quality than what you get inside your M3.
Since the Logic Studio package is an all in one solution, it surely counts as a complete system in my eyes.
There is nothing to configure there. You simply install it.
Add a 200$ soundcard and unlike on your M3, you are ready to record in studio standard 24 bit.
In my eyes, it doesn't really matter if the price difference is a couple hundred bucks. On the other side you also get so much more, compared to the HW solution like the M3. For example real audio tracks. (Try to record properly a lead vocal on the M3!).

So, if you want to build your own small studio for composing, arranging, producing, you will not spend that much more money. But with a SW sequencer on a properly sized screen, you will get much much more than on a HW sequencer in any aspect.

sani wrote:Hi orpheus,
I'm not quite sure that you get my point.
For me, the sequencer part of the HW Workstation is completely obsolete as a serious platform for producing music. Again, for me...and just the sequencer.
I have still a high opinion about the sound quality and in that regard, a keyboard like the M3 surely still has it's place in a studio. But I would never build my studio arround its sequencer.

I can fully agree to what you state above.

i think the m4 should be an oasys for $2000

brandon wrote:i think the m4 should be an oasys for $2000

throw in http://images.starpulse.com/pictures/20 ... 053535.jpg this , and I'll have two of them

I'm thinking of buying an Ns5R for some of those old Korg sounds.
I always wanted one of those little modules. They're hard to find.

For the M3? More RAM. McHale's idea of a hard-disk recorder is super.

gjvti wrote: Then only advantage of separate recording device could be if it allowed easier editing or sending to PC for editing in daw. The second is possible with line 6 recorder. Also it allows replay midi on any synth with midi input (or probably the same device) so you don't need to have your workstation near if you want to listen to it. It happened few times that I used M3 built in sequencer for capturing ideas, but the main problem with M3 is that it doesn't captures your playing (if Karma is used), but instead it captures summed result of karma+your playing, what is not that convenient if you want to edit that later on daw. I think it has been discussed in M3 wish list.

So you're telling me you can't do that on M3?
Because I did that many times...
The Karma is an extraoption that costs , and I believe it was made for making extramoney (the "developer" not me)...
I don't use it too much, but I did record it in a song...
Export the song as midi and import it in whatever DAW Software you're working in..
I use Cubase 4 and it works just fine this way...
Most of the workstations are using midi-songs for sending the internal songs to a computer...
And again, the internal sequencer was made for CATCHING ideas, not working as a internal DAW.
For that , buy a Fantom-G , to record even audio-tracks...
And by the way...
I know many bands using internal sequencer, after PC/Mac failure...
Even Liam (The Prodigy) have always a "backup plan" on the W-30 Roland. I remember that it was made a big joke because he throw away some macs in a concert...
Not to mention this...
When I used a Mac for my ex-band, the most enoughing thing was the LOADING TIME of a song...
Well, on the internal song, it's just a question of "turning the wheel"

I've got to wonder what kind of sales the M3 has enjoyed compared to the Motifs. When you look at the kind of activity on the Motifator site, the support of Yamaha US (Athan Billias), Bad Mister and Dave Polich, it says 3 things to me:

1. There's probably 3 times more end users
2. Yamaha was smart as hell. They didn't directly put up Motifator, some years ago they paired up with Keyfax, which was a marriage of common interests that includes an online store. It's vibrant as all get out over there, and pretty quiet over here.
3. They're large enough that they've got overlapping interests, so their Motifs connect to their digital consoles, which connect to their DAW, which connects to practically every other digital device in the studio and on stage. In other words, they've reached a critical mass where they've got a lot of synergy and momentum on their side.

When I look at Korg, which has had their own share of brilliant workstations, I see:
~ a lack of support and no long term plan to build support
~ a lot of trickle down for less expensive products
~ an attempt at a super workstation that ultimately was dropped, with little trickle down of the many synthesis methods

As much as I was hating on my Motif XS for its sample management nightmare (like managing the new sounds they gave us; this apparently has been fixed: sample editors, new OS), I have to admit they seem to have a plan and Korg doesn't. My impression of Korg is they treat this like any other consumer market with products thrown out as available, as compared to Yamahas approach to see the whole field as a larger network of products, with lots of support at the higher end.

I have no idea how much the workstation market brings in for them, and if there is the money to support more support. But it looks and feels really bad that they are yet again another silent, monolithic corporation that has little to no contact with their higher end customers. Feels a bit like being an orphan!

I was pre-disposed to love my M3 after meeting with so much technological frustration with the XS. But so far, a year into it, I find the M3 is very difficult to learn as well, and the support by Korg is non-existent, and the user base is not very energized or active. So much for the M3 being so much more user friendly.

But whether it's Roland, Korg, Yamaha or Kurzweil, the top workstations are all a bear to learn. To stay competitive with computer solutions, I believe the next generation of workstations need to include built-in learning programs (USB to a computer for example), and be designed from the ground up to be more straightforward to learn and use. If only the technically proficient and geeks amoung us have the patience and skill to learn an OS, then there's significant room for improvement!

ok guys i've got it the m3 extreme: maxed out with exb radias, EXB CX3!!!!!!! and heaps of ram. ah, why must i dream

lets face it guys the m series ,whether it was that cheap plastic keyboard or the m3 didn't make the hit that korg promised its self and the other in it..actually it was the biggest failure for korg from apoint of view of korg distributors in many countries,m series didnt offer any thing that could be considered as a turning point un like the M1 ....so 2 day nobody see the m3 or the m5o like the hit in 90s of th M1..i think korg is wise enough and we will see new workstations soon that will be far in design and synth engine from the m series ..

tarek wrote:i think korg is wise enough and we will see new workstations soon that will be far in design and synth engine from the m series ..

... and will be based on technology and production facilities that Korg carefully kept secret until now.

After carefully avoiding for two decades physical modeling of acoustic instruments, real analogue, master keyboards, acoustic piano modeling,

and after releasing 6 mini-keys toys aimed at the children-and-dj market,

Korg... ta-daahhh! ... will spring out of nowhere a totally new concept of workstation.

Cheap and powerful, luscious but light and practical,

aimed at the live musician with normally-sized fingers and normally-set ears.

No more 70-pounds super-DAWs with a Saudi-family-target price,

no more single-octave-small-size-keyed romplers based on 10 years old multisamples.

The "M4" real name will be the 007-Out-of-the-blue

If they can do that, the CIA should outsoursce secret keeping to Korg. They would bankrupt Wikileaks.

Come on, people: industrial products aren't born just like that. Without any interaction with the market.

[or: is it possibile that "the new korg workstation" is something which includes and summarizes technology from the Monotron, the Microsampler, the Microx, the Microstation and the IMS20? And whose hardware design is inspired to the Nano series? I DARN HOPE NOT! ]

Lack of support for current products DOESN'T herald NEW products.

It's exactly the opposite.

People who serve old and current clients well, sell new products.

Firms whose cars enjoy long second hand and third hand lives, can sell NEW cars to people who have come to trust them.

You will have clients who buy a new model every year, if the old model is upgradable and enticing to second-hand buyers.

"Will you buy the fantom? Uhm... Maybe. Or maybe I'll buy 3 new SRX cards for my xv5030". "Uhm... I just realized that I can finance my purchase by selling the xv5030 for a nice price, because it's still in demand due to its exoandability... Well, I want the cool new features, I'll buy the Fantom".

Second hand markets with stable prices create markets for new models.

On the contrary, everybody using the M3 (me included) is discussing the depreciation effect of a possibile new workstation.

If all we expect from a new workstation, is less second hand sales of the old workstation, the new one will never have a market. Hence, it will never exist!

Because it would a money-losing machine.

M1 was still alive and kicking and got plenty of new sounds and sample cards when 01/w was born. and 01/w was born BECAUSE the world still wanted MORE of the M1.

Successful products sire new products. Unsold products are sterile.

Declining brands don't innovate (because they have no money to do it, among others)

If they did, you'd know before they release new products: because they'd first innovate their processes, their marketing, their support, their sound development, they'd extract value from current clients by selling them expansions...

... THEN they'd finally spring a NEW product.

"No support for 'old' [i.e. current] products" means one thing, in ANY industrial sector: the company has no money to invest. It's cutting expenses, starting from support (which is the most self-defeating policy in ANY industrial sector).

And where there's no money to invest, there's no new product.

I definitely hope (and recommend) that Korg takes seriously its client base,

gives a new lease of life to M3 and Oasys,

sells its clients expansions and new features,

reassures them that investing 3000 or 6000 bucks in a new Korg instruments is worth while because korg products have a long life [better hinges on the M3 would help as well]

and THEN tries to sell them a new big box.

If I'll see that my M3 is doomed to obsolescence,

I won't make the same mistake buying an M4, I'll go for a Kurzweil or a Yamaha or whatever.

Or may be nothing: I'll just go on exploiting my M3 for what it's worth...

and buying old Korg synths (next addition to mys etup will be a TR rack)

Randelph wrote:I was pre-disposed to love my M3 after meeting with so much technological frustration with the XS. But so far, a year into it, I find the M3 is very difficult to learn as well, and the support by Korg is non-existent, and the user base is not very energized or active. So much for the M3 being so much more user friendly.

I'd recommend reading the M3 manual a few more times and spending time taking apart programs and combinations. You'll be able to appreciate your M3 more. It takes longer than a year to master KARMA.

As far as support is concerned, are you referring to OS upgrades, more sounds, phone support....what? Korg's tech support number is: 516-333-8737. They have real people answering the phones who are helpful and very knowledgeable. Not sure if Yamaha or Roland offer that.

This forum is extremely helpful, and there's also the Karma Labs forum for the M3 here:

http://www.karma-lab.com/forum/forumdis ... orumid=191

maybe were both speculating lets wait for winter namm and frankly idont think after 4 years from relasing the m3 ,that they will release anymore updates or expands for the m3..and maybe they should do ,but more important that they release successor for the m3 which will be aturning point not just as u said simple gathering of technology form the (BOYSTOYS) but new and real workstation that suits studio and live gig musicians..who knows maybe korg surprises us and icant wait for winter namm its almost after 1 month ....