Live Players: What do you use to monitor your keys?

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:40 pm

I think in order to be a professional musician, you need to devote a serious effort to your studies/education, whether at the conservatory or otherwise, just like with any other profession. Only two of the serious musicians I know have "other" jobs next to their music. Many teach, I don't (regularly). But all but two of them have studied at the conservatory.

jeremykeys · Post by **jeremykeys** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:07 pm

Wow! 80%! That's really good. I wish my music income was that high. I think that a lot of the problems musicians here have is that there are so many bands and so few gigs. That and audiences aren't as discerning as they once were. I've seen some bands that are actually horrible but because they'll play for almost nothing they get the gig. Unfortunately the bar owners will hire them first. Simple economics but they aren't helping the situation. Of course this eventually puts the price of live music down again. I was playing in a full time band called Wednesday in the mid to late 70's and was a salaried keyboard player at $450 a week. That was phenomenal money. And that was whether we played or not. We had a 5 ton truck, 2 man road crew, 24,000 watts of lighting and a huge P.A. We rarely played for less than $2,000 a night. It depended on the venue of course as sometimes it was only one thousand but not often. A 3 nighter would be between 3 and 4 thousand depending on if it was at the back or the front of the week. Expensed were way lower back then too.
Then it all seemed to change. Clubs started hiring 3 man punk bands for next to nothing and were still making money. Our market just slowly faded away. The big rooms are all but gone and even then pay bout half of what they used to. Sooooo! I've had to get a job. Bummer!

That's okay though. I'm not complaining. If I had stuck to trying to survive as a full-time musician I seriously doubt that I'd be here and the owner of a brand new Kronos!

Back in the 90's I toured Europe for 3 years as the keyboard player on a band called Killer Bee.
Now, life is good!

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:13 pm

Yes I recognize the problem of getting gigs, in our band we don't play the most known music because every coverband already does that, but it means that not everybody knows all our songs and we sometimes are not so interesting for bars. It's a wish we can afford because we don't have to live from it, commercial coverbands mostly only play very well known songs.

Bit offtopic: I went to the 'open day' of a school called 'music technology' but in the Netherlands it is very hard to get a job in this area. So now I am a software designer/engineer and in my free time I work on PCG Tools, so although I don't earn money, I still have combined music & technology.

However, I'm glad I'm not a pro musician, but I have lots of respect for those who are.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:58 pm

I think there is an error in thinking here somewhere. Many people who have not done a conservatory study or taken years out of their lives to study music full-time can still play music and enjoy it, sometimes even do it well. But this is what I mean about a pro setting himself apart. I don't mean to pat myself on the back as a musician at all with this. As an analogy, even though I'm handy with a computer and know the basics of computer programming I would never presume to say that I could be a software engineer full-time and get a decent wage. I could probably struggle as a self-employed software engineer but the amount of time it would take me to write stuff and the ramshackle end product would make it pretty impossible to live off it.

The same way a professional software engineer knows his business and can write code ten times as fast and as well as any hobbyist, the same way it takes me hardly any time to prepare for songs I have to play. So I can survive quite easily playing commercial music in my bands and filling in in other bands because it doesn't take me the whole day to prepare, and my own bands pretty much never rehearse because they're also full of educated musicians.

It's true that a commercial taste in music helps, but honestly, I find it much more interesting who I play with than what I'm playing. There can be beauty in any kind of music if you can hear the musicians through it. In other words, we do play "the most known music", but we play it a lot better than every coverband, to be a bit arrogant about it

I also play some original stuff and less known stuff. It's true that it's harder to make money with that. Or rather, you have to be spectacularly good to make money with that kind of stuff - people really have to want YOU. Not everyone can get to that level, I certainly can't. Part-time musicians almost never get to that level, not just because of skill but exactly because of the dedication of time (for study, marketing, playing) it requires.

EDIT: sorry for completely derailing this thread by the way...

EDIT 2: I don't mean to say that amateur musicians can't play well either - I still play with one who is one of the best bass players I know. But he's not flexible, if he suddenly has to play jazz or latin or has to check a song in a hurry or read a sheet you notice the difference.

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:26 pm

I completely agree with you Sander. I have quite some trouble learning new songs (of course it depends on the song). But I hate it when I have learned a song and after 4 weeks or so we stop doing it because it doesn't work out well. So I would probably be 10 times slower than you in learning new songs.

And yes, it is indeed important with who you play. Actually, our band plays several songs who are not really my 'style', but I have a lot of freedom, changing them (by adding/changing my parts). So I also really don't mind much what I play (though I have limits).

Also, it's quite sad a lot of the audience barely doesn't hear if a band is good or not ... the set list seems to be the most important. Most even cannot get the keyboard sounds from a complete band playing.

jeremykeys · Post by **jeremykeys** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:56 am

You're right there. Getting gigs is the hard part. I also find that now I'm quite content to go the my cottage with my wife and go fishing all day as opposed to gigging. This is also the time of year when a lot of my musician friends want to gig. I guess the idea of carrying a lot of equipment around isn't as appealing as it used to be.
I used to play in a Pink Floyd/Jethro Tull tribute band but found it far to restrictive. They wanted me to play everything "note for note" and that's not really how I play. I'm much more of a "jammer" in that I learn the song as close to exactly at first but then I put my own feel to it. That way I don't feel like I'm a tape recorder just repeating it all back each night. I mean no disrespect for those who do play that way, it's just not for me.
In my blues bands we don't even rehearse and for some reason they like to pick very obscure tunes. I like the challenge of getting it together live.

Back to the original line of though in this section though.
It looks like I"m going to start building my case for my Kronos today. What do you all use to protect yours when you travel?

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:29 pm

jeremykeys wrote:...

I totally agree ... I also try to learn it as exact as possible (or I can hear it). And after that I change things (sometimes before the exact 'study').

It's even so bad that when I listen later to the original song, some things have changed and I don't play the original anymore. It happens during rehearsing and everybody does their part a little different ... I think that's part of the joy of playing in a band together.

On topic: I don't have a Kronos but I think I will get a hardcase. The one(s) I have are either a bit unstable or too small.

jeremykeys · Post by **jeremykeys** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:56 am

I think that a lot of it for me is that I have always loved to improvise. Maybe I'm just lousy at learning songs! I'm not sure. In my heavy band, since there was no keyboard player originally, I get to write my own parts and this makes it much easier for me. Sometimes I have to copy second guitar parts like harmony mines but for the most of it I get to do what I want.

As for my case, I build them for a living. All I have to do now is cut and install the foam. It has wheels on one end to make it easier to move. It's our standard flight-case style.

PinkFloydDudi · Post by **PinkFloydDudi** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:30 pm

SanderXpander wrote:I think there is an error in thinking here somewhere. Many people who have not done a conservatory study or taken years out of their lives to study music full-time can still play music and enjoy it, sometimes even do it well. But this is what I mean about a pro setting himself apart. I don't mean to pat myself on the back as a musician at all with this. As an analogy, even though I'm handy with a computer and know the basics of computer programming I would never presume to say that I could be a software engineer full-time and get a decent wage. I could probably struggle as a self-employed software engineer but the amount of time it would take me to write stuff and the ramshackle end product would make it pretty impossible to live off it.

The same way a professional software engineer knows his business and can write code ten times as fast and as well as any hobbyist, the same way it takes me hardly any time to prepare for songs I have to play. So I can survive quite easily playing commercial music in my bands and filling in in other bands because it doesn't take me the whole day to prepare, and my own bands pretty much never rehearse because they're also full of educated musicians.

It's true that a commercial taste in music helps, but honestly, I find it much more interesting who I play with than what I'm playing. There can be beauty in any kind of music if you can hear the musicians through it. In other words, we do play "the most known music", but we play it a lot better than every coverband, to be a bit arrogant about it
I also play some original stuff and less known stuff. It's true that it's harder to make money with that. Or rather, you have to be spectacularly good to make money with that kind of stuff - people really have to want YOU. Not everyone can get to that level, I certainly can't. Part-time musicians almost never get to that level, not just because of skill but exactly because of the dedication of time (for study, marketing, playing) it requires.

EDIT: sorry for completely derailing this thread by the way...

EDIT 2: I don't mean to say that amateur musicians can't play well either - I still play with one who is one of the best bass players I know. But he's not flexible, if he suddenly has to play jazz or latin or has to check a song in a hurry or read a sheet you notice the difference.

As a computer programmer and musician, I find this analogy to be horrible.

When it comes to writing code, there are standards you should/must follow. There is a "right" way to code something that must be learned.

When I am writing a song, there is no "right" way for things to work. Music is up to the opinion of the listener - programming code is absolutely not.

I know people that have never done a single instrument lesson in their life that can play any song they hear by ear before the song is even over.

Also - no you don't have to necessarily be spectacular at your instrument to get big with original music. In fact, luck and looks are FAR superior to actual skill in mainstream music these days.

jeremykeys · Post by **jeremykeys** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:56 pm

Sad but true. Looks and luck do carry more weight than talent in today's market. Especially in the MTV YouTube scene. I generally like to listen to progressive music and electric jazz. Mind you I'm also a huge Tom Petty fan and get into straight ahead rock and metal. Depends on my mood. I guess what I'm saying is that most of what I like to listen to doesn't have a lot of video appeal going on but the music is amazing. We all are aware now that how you look is often more important than how you play.Throw some scantily clad dancers up there with you and you're a star! Oh well. I'll stick to what I'm doing and have fun. At my age and physique I'm certainly not video material and I know it. But I can still rock!

Just kind of wondering. What kind and how much in the way of lessons have any of you had? My grade 9 with the Royal Conservatory of Music here in Toronto has helped me immensely although at first I found learning rock songs by ear very difficult. Have any of you had the same problems?

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:22 am

PinkFloydDudi, I admit my analogy was crude. I have some arguments against yours as well but I won't even go there. My whole point (and I think you agree) has been that in order to be succesful as a professional musician, you have to be serious about it and dedicate a serious part of your life to it, including studies (whether by yourself or with a teacher; most of the work has to come from the player anyway).

I also disagree about the luck and somewhat about the looks. They can get you in to a certain extent, but if you want to be succesful and stick around, you have to bring some skill. Either creatively or in your instrument (usually voice). I believe musicians often don't give pop artists their due, in this respect.

As far as people with no lessons and perfect hearing; I never said they have to have lessons, just that they need to study and devote time to it in order to become succesful as a professional musician. That said, I've heard stories of "my nephew can play any song from the radio after hearing it once" too many times to count, and usually it's grossly exaggerated. Talented ears are wonderful but if you don't train them and your instrument they'll remain just that.

ronnfigg · Post by **ronnfigg** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:56 pm

In Ear monitors- PERIOD!

jeremykeys · Post by **jeremykeys** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:33 am

ronnfigg. I've never tried them and I have to admit that I am curious about how good they are. Do you recommend any particular brand or models? The only problem I could see would be the fact that we don't always have mics on all the gear. I imagine everybody in the band has to use them. Don't know. I also have to wonder if I; or you for that matter; miss the feel of the low end. I like to feel the bass of my keys. I have to use ear plugs because I'm trying to preserve what little hearing I have left. My right ear hasn't stopped ringing in 15 years. Sad but true. Back when I was in my 20's, in the mid 70's, if my bell bottom jeans weren't flapping from the bass from my cabinets, I wasn't loud enough. Each speaker had a 15 inch woofer and a horn. I had 2 of them stacked. Stupid but at the time it was great! There truly is something to be said for when you hit a big organ chord and the stage vibrates! I guess I was just tired of good keyboard players being delegated to the back row and made to be only the support for the guitar player. Never again I said! I guess it comes from listening to too much Deep Purple and the like.

PinkFloydDudi · Post by **PinkFloydDudi** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:54 pm

SanderXpander wrote:PinkFloydDudi, I admit my analogy was crude. I have some arguments against yours as well but I won't even go there. My whole point (and I think you agree) has been that in order to be succesful as a professional musician, you have to be serious about it and dedicate a serious part of your life to it, including studies (whether by yourself or with a teacher; most of the work has to come from the player anyway).

I think that is true about anything...but the question is how good does your skill have to be in order to accomplish what you want to do?
In music, skill does not equate to success by any means (more on that in a second!)

I also disagree about the luck and somewhat about the looks. They can get you in to a certain extent, but if you want to be succesful and stick around, you have to bring some skill. Either creatively or in your instrument (usually voice). I believe musicians often don't give pop artists their due, in this respect.

Do you consider "ability to use autotune" something that is a vocal "skill"? Do you think if Katy Perry was ugly (even with stage makeup) and had smaller..."assets" that she would be where she is? Think bands like Blink182 got to where they are because of musical skill?
Video killed the radio star!

Honestly the only 2 in today's pop music that I will give skill props to are Lady Gaga (check out her acoustic stuff), and Adele!

Let me put it a bit differently - the real talent in today's pop music I feel is in the producers, not the performers!

As far as people with no lessons and perfect hearing; I never said they have to have lessons, just that they need to study and devote time to it in order to become succesful as a professional musician. That said, I've heard stories of "my nephew can play any song from the radio after hearing it once" too many times to count, and usually it's grossly exaggerated. Talented ears are wonderful but if you don't train them and your instrument they'll remain just that.

I guess it is just that you don't have to be extremely skilled in music to be extremely successful. Now apply that to us common-folk who aren't making millions and the need to be THAT good is even less.
If you are simply stating the obvious that someone can't sit down at a piano for the first time and play Chopin, well then I agree with that. Do you need to be very good technically to be a professional musician? I don't agree you do.

PinkFloydDudi · Post by **PinkFloydDudi** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:13 pm

jeremykeys wrote:ronnfigg. I've never tried them and I have to admit that I am curious about how good they are. Do you recommend any particular brand or models?

I like the Shure SCL5s...and I started with Shure E2s (which are about $100 used these days). I had no complaints about them both. Sure the SCL5s were better, but not sure if they were worth the extra I paid for them.
I have heard most Senheisers are very good as well.

The only problem I could see would be the fact that we don't always have mics on all the gear. I imagine everybody in the band has to use them. Don't know.

If not everyone is mic'd, it can be a bit difficult. One solution is to take 1 earbud out so that you can hear them based on their stage volume. Keep in mind - if they aren't mic'd, how would a monitor wedge help that problem anyway? Most certainly not everyone has to use them. Its great if you all do (and own your own monitor board so you can set mixes and never have to touch them again), but that can be pretty expensive.

I also have to wonder if I; or you for that matter; miss the feel of the low end. I like to feel the bass of my keys. I have to use ear plugs because I'm trying to preserve what little hearing I have left. My right ear hasn't stopped ringing in 15 years. Sad but true. Back when I was in my 20's, in the mid 70's, if my bell bottom jeans weren't flapping from the bass from my cabinets, I wasn't loud enough. Each speaker had a 15 inch woofer and a horn. I had 2 of them stacked. Stupid but at the time it was great! There truly is something to be said for when you hit a big organ chord and the stage vibrates! I guess I was just tired of good keyboard players being delegated to the back row and made to be only the support for the guitar player. Never again I said! I guess it comes from listening to too much Deep Purple and the like.

That is one thing in-ears can't really provide. When drummers worry about that, I can ease their concerns by saying "you still feel the drums, the sound just comes from the in-ears"....with keyboard players, that isn't the case.

You COULD still setup your amp and turn it way up to get the "thump" and your hearing would still be protected with the earbuds...but that is just more equipment I wouldn't want to carry.

You don't lack "low end" with good earbuds, but you do lack the oomph felt from a big amp stack behind you.

Korg Forums

Live Players: What do you use to monitor your keys?

For Live Players: What do you use for monitoring your keyboards?