amplifying the m50

Discussion relating to the Korg M50 Workstation.

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dekturrr
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Post by dekturrr »

xmlguy wrote:Which is faster, a vehicle with an engine with 100HP, 200HP, or 4000HP?

What if I said the vehicles were a SportBike with 100HP, a 40 foot MotorHome with 200HP, or a TugBoat with 4000HP?

It's not the watts, it's what you do with them. In the case above, the best way to answer the question is to measure their top speed, not the HP of their engines. If I change the question to ask which is faster to tow a freighter out to sea, the right answer will change dramatically.

In the world of audio, watts are frequently misused and misinterpreted as a measure of loudness, even when comparing audio output systems with very different characteristics.

For example, 50W into a very efficient horn can be extremely loud, while 500W into a big, inefficient 18" bass direct radiator subwoofer might not be very loud at all.

A more appropriate measure of loudness is the Sound Pressure Level (SPL). Rather than getting into the specifics, which you can research elsewhere, lets just say that the 129dB Max SPL of the K10 is much louder than the 116dB of the StagePas 250M. The K10 is a much better speaker in nearly every other important respect too. The RCF Art is spec'd at 127dB. The SPL specs aren't the whole story, but they give a good clue to gauge the level of loudness you can expect. The RCF and K10 are indeed much closer to each other in performance than the StagePas 250M. The K10 will not sound more than twice as loud as the RCF, even though it has more than twice the amp watts. That doesn't make the StagePas a bad choice either, particularly if you want a mixer/speaker combo in a convenient portable package and don't need the volume put out by the K10 and RCF.

The best measure is to try them out if it at all possiblle in a store with your kind of music. Then try them in a gig. Mostly it will come down to what are your most important goals for buying the speakers. Personally, I would pick the K12s, since I've used them and they crank. I've heard both of the StagePas XXXM products, and the K series is much better IMO.

I love used gear, but the trick is to check out the gear carefully to be sure work it works right before commiting any cash.

Bi -amping allows for a better match between the amplifier and speaker, since the amp has only one speaker to drive. It also allows for an active crossover in front of the samp, Mono amps usually require a passive crossover between the amp and speakers.
thanks for your very informative post.

i still have questions though.

the sales guy of the RCF told me that if i wanted a powered speaker to be used as a keyboard amp, i should use a compressor limiter pre amp so that it will preserve the life of the speaker? how true is this?
with regards to that, i noticed that the stagepas 250M has a built in compressor limiter.

the only thing that makes me think twice with the yamaha stagepas 250M is the fact that i already have a mixer. another mixer would be redundant.

also, what does it mean to have a class D power modules?
is it class A better? sorry for the newbie question.



:D
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xmlguy
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Post by xmlguy »

The salesguy gave good information that was wrong because it was misapplied. The RCF speaker has limiter protection, as does the Kseries and most good powered speakers. And there's no need for a preamp at all for a keyboard with a line level output going to a powered speaker's line level input. The salesman would be right if the input was a microphone going to an amp & speaker without limiter protection. That's why he's a salesman and not an electronics engineer.

Amplifier class refers to it's electronic design. It's a complex subject that requires quite a bit of study as to what the various classes mean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switching_amplifier

The relevent benefits are (copied from wiki):

"Reduction in size and weight of the amplifier,
Reduced power waste as heat dissipation and hence smaller (or no) heat sinks,
Reduction in cost due to smaller heat sink and compact circuitry,
Very high power conversion efficiency, usually ≥ 90%."

Class D has become the most common type of amplifier in the last couple of years for powered speakers. For example, the Behringer B212A uses an analog amplifier, while the B212D uses a class D and is louder and more powerful for the same weight.
dekturrr
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Post by dekturrr »

thanks xmlguy, i really appreciate your post.

by the way, another choice popped up.

Electrovoice ZxA1.

kindly check this site.

http://www.electrovoice.com/sitefiles/d ... Manual.pdf

so you think its ok and is comparable with the RCF and the QSC?

i got attracted at this one because of its portability, super light weight with just around 8 kgs.

did anyone here in the forum used this one?
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holdsg
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Post by holdsg »

Yeah, I tried one of those at Sam Ash, before I bought my Yamaha MSR250. I commented that I liked the EV ZXA1 for smooth sound and portability earlier in this thread, just like you said. However, I found the bass response less than I wanted, and I guess its to be expected with such a small speaker in there (you might think its weak on bass regardless, just because its small and doesn't rattle the floor, if you catch my drift).

I can see how people would view the EV that as a very legit contender for a keyboard amp.
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dekturrr
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Post by dekturrr »

holdsg wrote:Yeah, I tried one of those at Sam Ash, before I bought my Yamaha MSR250. I commented that I liked the EV ZXA1 for smooth sound and portability earlier in this thread, just like you said. However, I found the bass response less than I wanted, and I guess its to be expected with such a small speaker in there (you might think its weak on bass regardless, just because its small and doesn't rattle the floor, if you catch my drift).

I can see how people would view the EV that as a very legit contender for a keyboard amp.
what's the difference between the EV ZXA1 and the SXA100+. was it just a remodelled version of the SXA100+?

thanks
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dekturrr
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Post by dekturrr »

holdsg wrote:
xmlguy wrote:A powered mixer is often cheaper to buy, but could be more expensive in the long run if you accidently blow up the speakers because there's no built-in protection from doing so. It's also usually a poor value for what you get because powered speakers have better components for the price, like a better amplifier, neodymium drivers, better HF horn compression driver, etc., among the other benefits I mentioned previously. Powered mixers were a better value 10+ years ago before powered speakers became widely available at reasonable prices. Things have changed since then.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that powered mixers are necessarily a bad option, particularly the ones like those mentioned by other people in this thread if it suits their purposes well, such as the better StagePas systems. Yamaha makes some very nice gear. The StagePas is well engineered as a system. The StagePas is integrated better than a typical powered mixer + speakers that you buy separately. There are many people who are perfectly satisfied with their existing powered mixers and speakers, so mostly I'm talking about their benefits and drawbacks for a new purchase. If you find a good used powered mixer and speakers for a value price, then you can still end up with a good result too.
Good info xlrguy, can tell you're experienced in this area. I have gained "experience" through trial and error, and wished I had your wisdom prior to some of the errors. Yep, this thread should be required reading for any Korg-ite (or is it Korg-anism?) seeking to play live.
i think he's xml not xlr. haha
just kidding.
:D
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dekturrr
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Post by dekturrr »

dekturrr wrote:
holdsg wrote:Yeah, I tried one of those at Sam Ash, before I bought my Yamaha MSR250. I commented that I liked the EV ZXA1 for smooth sound and portability earlier in this thread, just like you said. However, I found the bass response less than I wanted, and I guess its to be expected with such a small speaker in there (you might think its weak on bass regardless, just because its small and doesn't rattle the floor, if you catch my drift).

I can see how people would view the EV that as a very legit contender for a keyboard amp.
what's the difference between the EV ZXA1 and the SXA100+. was it just a remodelled version of the SXA100+?

thanks
weak on bass you said? that's my experience with with my B3 U8a powered speaker, can't get the sound that i wanted with a low note piano.

the EVZXA1 is an 8" speaker, so maybe the 10" speaker would have a good sounding low note piano?

then i may have to remove the EV to my choices because the EV has no 10" speaker. from 8" they moved to 12" right away.

i do not want to use the 12" because i find it too big and heavy for me, that's why i do not consider the mackie srm 450's because ive seen it and its too big for me.

i just wish the K10 has a good low note piano sound. or the RCF.=)
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xmlguy
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Post by xmlguy »

Hi dekturrr, the low notes on an acoustic piano are actually very low in the bass frequency range, and you'll generally need a minimum 12" bass speaker, a 15" or powered subwoofer better. You're trying to reproduce the sound of a huge diameter piano string which has some significant bass audio energy. That needs a pretty large speaker to move that air efficiently. A 12" speaker starts dropping off in performance around 60Hz, while a 15" extends the performance to about 50Hz, and a powered sub can efficiently go to 20-30Hz.

So this exposes the fatal flaw of the EV with an 8" driver, the low bass will not be there. EV makes some very nice speakers, but they can't overcome the physics of bass audio. So there will be a tradeoff between bass performance and the size/weight of the speakers, so you have to choose which is more important for you.

To everyone who wrote thanks, you're quite welcome! I'm glad you found the info helpful.
dekturrr
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Post by dekturrr »

QSC K10 here costs 1000 USD,
RCF art310A about 935 USD,

how about there?
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holdsg
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Post by holdsg »

don't know about RCF, but QSC K10 is $700 USD.
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holdsg
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Post by holdsg »

Just won at auction on the 'bay a barely used QSC K10 for $670 USD including the carry case. Will pick it up (local seller) sometime this week and give you all a hands-on review once I get her home and plug her in.
Bass and keyboard player, not usually at the same time, but sometimes in the same song!
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dekturrr
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Post by dekturrr »

holdsg wrote:Just won at auction on the 'bay a barely used QSC K10 for $670 USD including the carry case. Will pick it up (local seller) sometime this week and give you all a hands-on review once I get her home and plug her in.
ok, im waiting for it.

btw, what mixer you will use?
was it a pair or a piece?
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holdsg
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Post by holdsg »

its a single. only needed one to pair with my MSR250 for stereo.
don't have a mixer yet, just plan on using the two speakers in stereo for now, maybe add a mixer later if I find the need.
Bass and keyboard player, not usually at the same time, but sometimes in the same song!
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dekturrr
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Post by dekturrr »

the MSR250 is a powered speaker?
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mocando
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Post by mocando »

dekturrr wrote:the MSR250 is a powered speaker?
That's a good question. Powered speakers are those whose amplifier resides inside the main speaker cabinet. On the Yamahas I think the amp part is on the detachable mixer module, so in reality will make them a passive speaker. I'm not sure, though. We'll have to hear it from MSR250 users.
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