Clavia / NORD - taking over the (stage) world !! ??

[jimknopf]

I would like to get back to the serious background of Kevin's and other notions.

From my view it can’t be seriously discussed that the Kronos offers the by far most advanced and comfortable all-in-one solution for present keyboarders. Besides access to all it's engines and an extremely versatile OS, it also is the most user friendly and powerful sampling keyboard far and wide, allowing access to almost any sound available from any source.

I have seen the Kronos in the top selling ranks of the biggest European reseller, since it was available in numbers. So probably some keyboarders play all these units, or should we rather assume they all hide them under their beds? I also contradict the view that a kronos is hardly seen on stage: I see them again and again, and in slowly growing numbers, on all levels of band prominence and through various styles of music.

Still, there is one thing to remember IMHO:
Pro keyboarders tend to change basic gear much less frequent than amateur keyboarders do. I often have been wondering, seeing skilled professionals use the same gear they used 5 years ago, or updated versions of that gear, while amateur keyboarders like me or semi-pros use newer gear. The reason is simple from my view: if you play extended set lists, or play in various projects, you spent a lot(!) of time getting your sound setup ready to go. Once it works as it should, you don’t really want to spend 1-2 hours per song (no, not in a blues band) for re-programming everything, unless you are sure that replacing your old setups will be a a big benefit and a breeze, because the new synth/workstation has a carefully handcrafted, and still big and versatile preset library, ready and tested for stage use.

Here some keyboard brands have had many years to build a certain reputation and customer base
- Kurzweil for first class programming in the 80s/90s, from which they still profit despite their tiny sample set. Many musicians felt/feel that was aimed at their practical needs.
- Yamaha tried the same on a better sample base, and Yamaha users regularly tell me that they like the board so much because most of the sounds are stage ready and easy to imply in setups
- Roland was always appreciated for their own sonic flavor (full and warm, with a lot of gospel/r&b/hiphop affinity), and the 5080 rack perhaps is another example of something simply used like a studio standard, just because it offered a well useable preset base (Eric Persing really understood what musicians wanted to use).
- Clavia delivered the easy to use bread-and-butter package with direct knob-/slider approach, and were among the first delivering well useable Rhodes and B3 sounds above the quality of the others mentioned above, soon as vintage sounds became important again.

This is where the Kronos enters (after their own Korg Trinity/Triton/M3 history, and after the Oasys being a minority keyboard). It is clear that many pro keyboarders stay with their different brand sound setups they have used a long time, unless they have a reason beyond pure technical superiority.

THIS is the only area where I think there is significant room for Korg improvement, while they deliver first class keyboards. You find a lot of interesting sounds on Korg keyboards. But users of Yamahas and Nords tell me they find not enough immediately stage ready stuff for their taste, and that they a) need too much time finding what they want on a Kronos plus the addon packages, and have too much to edit (generally too much wet effect sound, many patches not to their liking ect.). I’m sorry I can’t be more precise, but from my view it would help Korg a lot to
a) revisit the present Kronos preset database , to separate the jewels from the not-stage-ready or even a bit outdated content.
b) deliver more sound packages for concrete musical purposes (well kown song sounds for cover bands, separate r&b/funk/hiphop and electronica packages, synth hero signature sounds, top 40 sounds etc.)

It’s probably a pain for Korg staff to read that, after offering so many sounds, but it's sincere feedback from musicians I know and the way THEY feel: perhaps you can take it into consideration.

On the other hand, whenever it comes to getting whatever sound you want on a Kronos, I know no other keyboard which lets you come to results and as close as this one – at least as far as my use is concerned. Everyone here knows it's my favorite keyboard, and a real fun combonation together with the KK.

[danatkorg]

It’s probably a pain for Korg staff to read that, after offering so many sounds, but it's sincere feedback from musicians I know and the way THEY feel: perhaps you can take it into consideration.

I sincerely appreciate all constructive feedback, and I'm sure that other Korg staff feel the same way.

As I wrote earlier in this thread: "That's very separate from the question of why someone would choose one keyboard or another, and I'm always interested to read what people have to say about that. Carry on... "

[GregC]

I would like to get back to the serious background of Kevin's and other notions.



THIS is the only area where I think there is significant room for Korg improvement, while they deliver first class keyboards. You find a lot of interesting sounds on Korg keyboards. But users of Yamahas and Nords tell me they find not enough immediately stage ready stuff for their taste, and that they a) need too much time finding what they want on a Kronos plus the addon packages, and have too much to edit (generally too much wet effect sound, many patches not to their liking ect.). I’m sorry I can’t be more precise, but from my view it would help Korg a lot to
a) revisit the present Kronos preset database , to separate the jewels from the not-stage-ready or even a bit outdated content.
b) deliver more sound packages for concrete musical purposes (well kown song sounds for cover bands, separate r&b/funk/hiphop and electronica packages, synth hero signature sounds, top 40 sounds etc.)

.

So, what you are suggesting to Korg is to create/recreate ' retro sound ' sound libs , sort of like signature 'sounds' of songs created for the genre's you stated. For example, many of those same ' sounds ' were created with the Oberheim, Roland, etc, etc vintage equipment. Or emulations of other textbook sound hooks, such as trumpet riifs ?

[BobTheDog]

Atruria do a set of retro patch libs for the Origin : http://www.arturia.com/evolution/en/pro ... urces.html

They are interesting but to cover all the bases that users would want would be a massive job wouldn't it?

[kanout]

Pro keyboarders tend to change basic gear much less frequent than amateur keyboarders do. I often have been wondering, seeing skilled professionals use the same gear they used 5 years ago, or updated versions of that gear, while amateur keyboarders like me or semi-pros use newer gear. The reason is simple from my view: if you play extended set lists, or play in various projects, you spent a lot(!) of time getting your sound setup ready to go. Once it works as it should, you don’t really want to spend 1-2 hours per song (no, not in a blues band) for re-programming everything, unless you are sure that replacing your old setups will be a a big benefit and a breeze, because the new synth/workstation has a carefully handcrafted, and still big and versatile preset library, ready and tested for stage use.

Interesting point:
-i think one of the reason pro keep their keyboards,is the fact that so many proffesional keyboardist in the world don't earn as much money to often change.
Living easily as a pro musician is hard for a big part of them..

The qdvantage with Nord is the following logical from each new keyboard they made.
All is the same from a big part of them,and you're never lost.(of course it is more simple with a stage than with a kronos due to the power and complexity of the korg.)


To the signature sounds:
I don't think it will change something,even if it's always a good idea.

Nord buyers are knowing why they bought it,the same with kronos buyers.
Honestly,when you have a nord stage you don't have so much signature sounds..(there is a good bank with 60 vox/farfisa signature sounds)
All the sounds are in the classic"type of"...but the same with the kronos(wich have some eps classic type exactly like the nord.

The best keyboard for signature sound is the kurzweil:
You have in the bank so many signature sounds with the song tittle in it..and kurzweil don't sell better than korg.

No,i think personnally about the philosophy difference.
You can't produce a keyboard for everybody,it's impossible.
There are so many music to play and so many keyboard players.

The good or bad from these keyboards are well known for everybody..
Each buyer have to admit these points and make his own choices.

I don't think korg must change what is the kronos.
The concept,sound and idea is pleasant..no problem.
Korg just have to keep all the good(admit the mistakes with humility to respect the delusion from some buyers),and build it like a tank,and nothing more to discuss here from my point of view.

[kanout]

Danatkorg wrote:
[/quote]Thanks for clarifying your character and intent, kanout. You've done so much more definitively than anyone else ever could.[quote]

Thanks for clarifying korg position about delused buyers mr danatkorg.
I thought in the 2 last years that korg don't really care about customer problems,even if they are a long time users(i can show you if you want all the good things i wrote for some korg products in french forums,it's always available on the net )
Your posture with me demonstrate perfectly this

[DocBambs]

Still, there is one thing to remember IMHO:
Pro keyboarders tend to change basic gear much less frequent than amateur keyboarders do. I often have been wondering, seeing skilled professionals use the same gear they used 5 years ago, or updated versions of that gear, while amateur keyboarders like me or semi-pros use newer gear. The reason is simple from my view: if you play extended set lists, or play in various projects, you spent a lot(!) of time getting your sound setup ready to go. Once it works as it should, you don’t really want to spend 1-2 hours per song (no, not in a blues band) for re-programming everything...

I am really happy with my Kronos but it has taken me a long time to transit from the Triton which was my core stage workstation for the previous 10 years. Looking back, I was incredibly inefficient in the way I used the Triton, but 10 years of regular use tends to mean that you can use it in your sleep! I've spent 11 months creating a new workflow for gigs using the Set Lists. I've also created specific sets lists for "I don't know what I am playing" type of gigs. It's a standard set of Pianos/EPs/Strings/sound effects that I might need.

I have had time to do this - I suspect that average gigging bands just don't have time. I have sounds that are still not right, even after 12 months of tweaking. I almost took the Triton to a gig last weekend because we were playing material we hadn't done in years and I had had no time to set up the Kronos - I actually had to create a couple of (barely adequate) Combis on the fly! I'm an amateur, so I can get away with that - pro's can't.

THIS is the only area where I think there is significant room for Korg improvement, while they deliver first class keyboards. You find a lot of interesting sounds on Korg keyboards. But users of Yamahas and Nords tell me they find not enough immediately stage ready stuff for their taste, and that they a) need too much time finding what they want on a Kronos plus the addon packages, and have too much to edit (generally too much wet effect sound, many patches not to their liking ect.). I’m sorry I can’t be more precise, but from my view it would help Korg a lot to
a) revisit the present Kronos preset database , to separate the jewels from the not-stage-ready or even a bit outdated content.
b) deliver more sound packages for concrete musical purposes (well kown song sounds for cover bands, separate r&b/funk/hiphop and electronica packages, synth hero signature sounds, top 40 sounds etc.)

The factory preset set list was a brilliant way of showing off the features & engines of the keyboard, but another one with the "standards" might be enough to allow performers to get going with the Kronos immediately.

This might be worth looking at for a future build spec.

DB

[SanderXpander]

I've spent 11 months creating a new workflow for gigs using the Set Lists. I've also created specific sets lists for "I don't know what I am playing" type of gigs. It's a standard set of Pianos/EPs/Strings/sound effects that I might need.

Haha, I have the exact same thing. A couple of full keyboard sounds and a few likely splits.

But this really is where the Nord excels. Without any preprogramming, I can layer a piano and organ with literally two button presses. Make it piano/pad and put the organ on the right hand side with like 4 more presses. Change the piano into a Rhodes and add a phaser in 2. With instant control over phaser depth and speed, while still having dedicated controls for rotary on the organ and global reverb level. It's limited but it sure is a joy to play live.

I really like the flexibility of the Kronos but I really don't need even ten different piano presets. I just need ONE that's really good. And then a couple of fx for different musical styles (compression, chorus, eq). This is the philosophy of Clavia, and there is real power to it, even if it's not for everyone.

[kimu]

that's what i really enjoy when i am on live stage...
imo clavia (and others synth like v-synth, virus or the king korg itself) gives you a more intimacy and fast reaction with the instrument to the live environment than a workstation...

i often play live with an M50 and lots of time i would have liked to put on the fly a delay or a reverb to a sound because that moment call for it and all the time struggles cause it requires to much time... so ended up to bring a dedicated pedal

[burningbusch]

Haha, I have the exact same thing. A couple of full keyboard sounds and a few likely splits.

But this really is where the Nord excels. Without any preprogramming, I can layer a piano and organ with literally two button presses. Make it piano/pad and put the organ on the right hand side with like 4 more presses. Change the piano into a Rhodes and add a phaser in 2. With instant control over phaser depth and speed, while still having dedicated controls for rotary on the organ and global reverb level. It's limited but it sure is a joy to play live.

I really like the flexibility of the Kronos but I really don't need even ten different piano presets. I just need ONE that's really good. And then a couple of fx for different musical styles (compression, chorus, eq). This is the philosophy of Clavia, and there is real power to it, even if it's not for everyone.

But what you're talking about has been available in stage pianos for a long time. Maybe you don't have the dedicated FX buttons, but setting up splits/layers on the fly is easy. Stage pianos generally have superior actions, are better MIDI controllers and have more sounds onboard.

You're also talking about the top-end of the Nord line, the Stage which is $4000+. The Electro line has no split/multitimbral capabilities. The Nord Piano does, somewhat, allowing you to split with a single velocity layer sample sound.

Busch.

[NuSkoolTone]

I would like to get back to the serious background of Kevin's and other notions.



THIS is the only area where I think there is significant room for Korg improvement, while they deliver first class keyboards. You find a lot of interesting sounds on Korg keyboards. But users of Yamahas and Nords tell me they find not enough immediately stage ready stuff for their taste, and that they a) need too much time finding what they want on a Kronos plus the addon packages, and have too much to edit (generally too much wet effect sound, many patches not to their liking ect.). I’m sorry I can’t be more precise, but from my view it would help Korg a lot to
a) revisit the present Kronos preset database , to separate the jewels from the not-stage-ready or even a bit outdated content.
b) deliver more sound packages for concrete musical purposes (well kown song sounds for cover bands, separate r&b/funk/hiphop and electronica packages, synth hero signature sounds, top 40 sounds etc.)

.

So, what you are suggesting to Korg is to create/recreate ' retro sound ' sound libs , sort of like signature 'sounds' of songs created for the genre's you stated. For example, many of those same ' sounds ' were created with the Oberheim, Roland, etc, etc vintage equipment. Or emulations of other textbook sound hooks, such as trumpet riifs ?

I think this is a great idea for Korg. Sometimes you just want a "Standard" sound, Like a lucky lead, a lately bass, or (gasp) a jump sound! Some maybe in the showcase on the demo floor to show the board can do "Old School" but more preferably in a separate bank. Currently my Motif still trumps the Kronos for this. What's sad is I'd much rather use the VAs on the Kronos, but honestly don't have the time. Also how about the CX-3? To the drawbar noobs that don't know how to get those sounds exactly why isn't there a bank of Hammond's greatest hits? Assuming the CX-3 can do those sounds would be a GREAT way to showcase it no? To me this can be viewed as a matter of support. In all the time spent developing sounds for these keyboards, aren't there hundreds of great patches that never see the light of day?

[SanderXpander]

Haha, I have the exact same thing. A couple of full keyboard sounds and a few likely splits.

But this really is where the Nord excels. Without any preprogramming, I can layer a piano and organ with literally two button presses. Make it piano/pad and put the organ on the right hand side with like 4 more presses. Change the piano into a Rhodes and add a phaser in 2. With instant control over phaser depth and speed, while still having dedicated controls for rotary on the organ and global reverb level. It's limited but it sure is a joy to play live.

I really like the flexibility of the Kronos but I really don't need even ten different piano presets. I just need ONE that's really good. And then a couple of fx for different musical styles (compression, chorus, eq). This is the philosophy of Clavia, and there is real power to it, even if it's not for everyone.

But what you're talking about has been available in stage pianos for a long time. Maybe you don't have the dedicated FX buttons, but setting up splits/layers on the fly is easy. Stage pianos generally have superior actions, are better MIDI controllers and have more sounds onboard.

You're also talking about the top-end of the Nord line, the Stage which is $4000+. The Electro line has no split/multitimbral capabilities. The Nord Piano does, somewhat, allowing you to split with a single velocity layer sample sound.

Busch.

Stage pianos never had easy access to good quality fx and they didn't have a drawbar organ of any notable quality. Also, speaking from experience, a two point split was easy to do on Rolands and Yamaha but anything more complicated is way quicker on the Nord. Especially when dealing with fx. I remember being excited about the Roland V-Combo when it came out, but it lacked the Nord's immediacy and the Rhodes sound was inferior to it.

You're right in that the basic idea wasn't new. They just took it to the next level and were just in time to profit from the retro/soul revival.

[Cpilot]

Well, I would never buy a Nord precisely because it's red. Ugh. The Kronos suits my conservative nature. One of its appealing things is it's not fussy like Nords or Motifs which makes it easier to understand and use. I don't like the knobs much and I've been through my collection of knobs trying to find ones I like with little success. It's all down to taste. As to it sounding flat and uninspiring, I think it's due to the high quality and low distortion. I originally used amps but when I looked at the specs, I realised that amps wouldn't do it justice. So it's plugged straight into a high quality 600W/channel stereo amplifier, no preamp and large fullrange speakers. Doesn't sound flat or uninspiring any more. There's lots of subtlety in the sounds. Herbie's Butterfly EP sounds particularly good and the German Grand sounds like it should. I had some problems with half damping because my half damper has reverse polarity but that's a whole other story and I have it fixed.

Bryan

[SanderXpander]

How do you mean the Nords are fussy? Could just be a difference in expression but if anything I would say the Nords are the least fussy of all boards. Especially compared to the Kronos, which I love, but has people complaining how complicated it is almost daily on here.

[Goughy]

Well, I would never buy a Nord precisely because it's red.

There's only one thing worse than buying a keyboard because it's red...

...and that's not buying it because it's red!