Clavia / NORD - taking over the (stage) world !! ??

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:06 pm

I'm in Paris for a few days. tonight there has been the most extraordinary music event I've ever come across - literally bands and groups playing on every street, at every corner and at every available venue - all free - over the entirety of Paris.

I've walked the feet off myself for the past five hours going from music event to music event.

the musics - funk, rap, jazz, oriental throat singing, a "join in song along" on the Passerelle des Arts bridge (pedestrian bridge between the Louvre and The Institute de France) - you name it - it was on.

The most shocking observation of the evening - virtually every single keyboard I saw, in every band (bar three) used either a NORD Electo or a NORD Stage. No exaggeration. I literally lost count of the number of groups using a NORD - perhaps 20 or more of the bands I saw. Beyond that - one Yamaha, one Kawai and one Casio.

Not one Korg!

Have NORD taken over the world in the live keyboard department??? I think they have.

I'm wondering - how can Kronos, so superior to the NORD Stage and Electo, be so far behind? Given that Kronos sells quite well, it must be that NORD are selling keyboards in multiples of the numbers of Korg - up towards DX7 and M1 numbers?

I tried both the Electro and Stage (admittedly several years ago) but found their acoustic, CP and Fender pianos to be honestly shockingly bad - and even the advertised amount of Sample RAM and Layers for each Pianos type were extremely low by Korg Kronos standards.

It must be the colour and the styling - that's one of the few things I can think of. Admittedly, as bad as the Elecrto and Stage sound through good monitors, they do sound well in a stage live environment - they give that cut-through, cliched sound we're all familiar with, and perhaps the later versions of each are better overall?

Still, compared to Kronos, the Electro and Stage are awful; yet, Clavia have won the battle of selling stage keyboards by a country mile - in Paris at least. Again I'll say it - I have never witnessed such a ubiquitous choice of keyboard since the DX7, it was quite shocking to witness; and I feel Korg have lost a major trick in this - whether due to poor styling, the keybed issue or perhaps even over sophistication - I don't know - but they are only selling a fraction of the numbers of Clavia stage keyboards.

Kevin.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:34 pm

The Nord is super reliable and its live interface is second to none. It's sounds are definitely not "shockingly bad" by most people's standards, I still really like the Rhodes and Clavs in my Stage Classic, even if I've fallen out of love with the pianos somewhat. If I had to play keys somewhere abroad and I didn't need thousands of sounds, I'd probably request a Nord. Also, they may have been sponsoring the event, it's not uncommon.

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:51 pm

SanderXpander wrote:The Nord is super reliable and its live interface is second to none. It's sounds are definitely not "shockingly bad" by most people's standards, I still really like the Rhodes and Clavs in my Stage Classic, even if I've fallen out of love with the pianos somewhat. If I had to play keys somewhere abroad and I didn't need thousands of sounds, I'd probably request a Nord. Also, they may have been sponsoring the event, it's not uncommon.

I don't mean to argue with you - but let me put it this way - the Yamaha CP Electric Piano on the Stage and Electro I tried was worse - far worse - than even the CP Electric Piano in the early 90's Electric Piano Card for the JD800. I kid you not. There was no comparison - the JD800 Card was noticeably superior. Similar for their acoustic pianos - I could not believe how obvious the sample points were, how awful the layering worked (and didn't work) and how brutal - yes brutal there's no other word for it - the bass end was. I mean it - the Nord Stage and Electro are absolutely the worst pianos I have heard in decades. They are at about the same sample sophistication as early to mid 90s sampled keyboards. Perhaps the 2nd and 3rd release of those instruments are improved - it is a few years since I tried them - but I know what I heard - and I put them through their paces intending to buy one - but ran a mile when I heard how pathetic their acoustic, CP and Fender pianos were. Kronos is many, MANY leagues higher in every respect. Indeed, the GM CP piano on Kronos (same as on OASYS I believe which I own) is streets ahead of the Nords.

So I'm not looking to get into a debate on this - but I do not believe this is a matter of taste - I believe that, certainly for the version 1 of each, the pianos were absolutely terrible - the worst by far of all the current stage pianos - and even then they were selling like hot cakes. It must be that most keyboard players here that cliched sound for stage and leave it at that. They cannot be buying the Nords for their realism and depth - it simply isn't there. Still, from what I witnessed tonight, they are essentially the only choice for all current / up and coming bands and groups performing live.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:51 am

I couldn't speak for the very very first, but I do have a Stage Classic. While I much prefer the sound of my Kronos now, it's ridiculous to say the Nords were by far the worst. And then to claim it's objectively true as well! I know what I think and I think I'm a decent judge, so I guess further discussion on the sound is moot. I will say that most players won't have bought one just because it's red.

adamburgess · Post by **adamburgess** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:49 am

The live interface on my Stage 2 is great. Yeah, it's expensive considering I use it only for B3 and piano, but the instantaneous connection feels great to play. All subjective, but I don't get on with Korg's hammer action. The Nord is still the best instrument I've owned.

The Kronos gets used for everything else, including EPs (love them), FX for my acoustic guitar and bass, crazy splits and layers - stuff that needs to be planned.

laandodeman · Post by **laandodeman** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:02 am

Kevin Nolan wrote:

So I'm not looking to get into a debate on this - but I do not believe this is a matter of taste .

Well Kevin, I sold my Nord Stage classic for Oasys and after that the Kronos. And be sure I am happy with that. But apparently if it's about piano sound it is a matter of taste.

A much as I love the Kronos, I simply cannot believe you prefer the Kronos GM CP80 over the CP 80 of the Stage. It's a mere joke in my view. I do miss the electric grand of the Stage.

Concerning the other piano sounds: somehow the Nord "feels" more like a piano to me. Its really just a lot closer when I compare it to my acoustic Yamaha grand (G3). Perhaps its one or two nano-seconds of latency on the Kronos, I don't know, but the Kronos feels more "indirect" when playing piano's.

Nevertheless, I prefer the Kronos and I never regretted my switch. But it IS a matter of taste obviously.

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:08 am

Sure - a lot of subjectivity when it comes to pianos ( though the Kronos Cp80 is no joke - have you tried the expanded voice sets for OASYS - the CP80s there are very respectable. I did some work on that voice too, adding pitch stretch, eq, chorus and tremelo - very satisfactory results).

Anyway - all of that aside - i'm keen on opinions, discussionas to just why the nord stage and electro are SO popular, ubiquitous - and - what have Korg ( indeed the big three ) missed out on?

In my opinion its style - the colour red is now synonomous with an up and coming band - so you beter have one. As simple as that. And all nords are now identical in colour and follow a unified stylying - like Apple. I genuinely believe its down to that, and not particularly about sound, complexity, flexability, ...

Bertotti · Post by **Bertotti** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:27 am

I am no pro so take this with a grain of salt. My first choice for hammer action was the Stage2. I also like the sounds and the available sample library. I love the organs especially the pipe. Why did I go Korg?
1) price
I tried decided that of Korg came out with a new board over the Kronos soon after our base I would be less upset then if Nord replaced the stage 2 in short order. I am looking for the stage three or whatever the next step for them will be.
2) I wanted to learn to program
3) depth of the board. Kronos is a very flexible board and a great value be Use it really is like haven't many different synths at your finger tips!

I love the Kronos and would not give it up for any other board out there currently. And I do not see me ever be oming tired of it. It sounds great now and will still sound great at my death, if it makes it that long.

If and when I add a hammer action it will be Nord.

narf · Post by **narf** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:28 am

I've had the same observation here in Australia as well... At a music festival I recently attended out of 8 bands, 4 of them had keyboard players and all of them had nords. They sounded great in the mix but certainly not particularly better than the Kronos. They do look impressive from the audience's POV.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:34 am

Styling may be a part of it but more in the sense of recognizability. An up and coming player in a new band sees everybody playing these red boards, they're instantly recognizable as Nords. But this has been going on for years already. Fellow musicians and sound guys alike refer to my Stage as "your Nord lead".

And really, do not underestimate the quality of the Nord live interface. It's the main thing I miss on my Kronos but of course it's not possible with a machine so much more complicated. The Nord is flexible, has top quality hardware and whatever you may feel, most people think they sound great. They're super easy to program even for those who have never had to program a single custom sound in their lives, and for those with the newer boards, there is an ever expanding sound library with very usable patches, all of which are free.

Styling can only be an aid to sales in my opinion. In some cases it can be a big one. But there has to be a quality product underneath.

Purusha · Post by **Purusha** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:52 am

Haven't been tempted by the "stage" or electro boards since I'm more of a synth guy than someone who needs EPs etc.

I have a Lead 3, a Wave and a G2.

Love them to bits. Very easy and straight-forward interface with all the useful knobs on there for live tweaking. Very little menu diving.

Light and easy to carry. Made of metal rather than plastic too! Build quality generally better than any of the Korgs I own or have owned.

In contrast, although my Kronos is powerful synth-wise, and it's much more flexible in the effects department, the same immediacy isn't there.

It's also a shame that Kronos doesn't allow patch editing when in sequencer mode. Reckon it'd get more use for the synth based stuff if I could use it like that.

Also - the Nords boot within seconds! I can make a coffee whilst I'm waiting for the Kronos to boot!

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:57 am

I didn't care for the Nord pianos until they came out with the Grand Imperial. But after that, personally, I'd take the Nord pianos over the Kronos... and that piano already had been released by the time Kronos first appeared. (Though of course that preference is subjective.)

And I think that's an important point missing from your analysis, Kevin. When you say, "how can Kronos, so superior to the NORD Stage and Electo, be so far behind?" you have to remember that Nord has been selling Electros and Stages since 2001, the Kronos came out in 2011! Since most musicians don't replace their gear every year or two, I would certainly expect to see more Electros/Stages in the wild than Kronos.

Also, until Kronos (well Oasys, but that's another conversation), Korg did not make any boards that combined clonewheel organ with any other sounds. You want a good organ but also some pianos/clavs? That's a pretty desirable combination, and Korg had nothing. Pre-Kronos, it would basically take a CX3 and an SV1 to do what an Electro did.

Even today, though, I can see lots of people choosing Nord, for its light weight and stage-friendly ergonomics. Also, Electro is cheaper than Kronos. Of course, Kronos has many advantages over Nord as well. But for what many people consider "the essentials," Nord's relative simplicity and light travel weight remain seductive to lots of users.

laandodeman · Post by **laandodeman** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:32 pm

Kevin Nolan wrote:Sure - a lot of subjectivity when it comes to pianos ( though the Kronos Cp80 is no joke - have you tried the expanded voice sets for OASYS - the CP80s there are very respectable. I did some work on that voice too, adding pitch stretch, eq, chorus and tremelo - very satisfactory results).

Are you talking about the CP80s you put on this link Kevin? http://www.korgforums.com/support/kronos.htm

Sorry, but I cannot agree with you. The samples lack depth, are too short and are looped (run dead after half a second). I really think it's an omission that there is no CP80 sample in the EP1 engine. The EP1 and the SGX1 were my main reason (plus the lesser weight) for me to switch from Oasys to Kronos, assuming there would be a CP80 on it. Too bad I didn't check.

I found some other CP80 samples though on the internet, and this is the great thing of course with the Kronos, that you can add them in your own userbank. So I am saved for now. But a CP80 in the EP1 with appropriate chorusses and other dediceted fx would have been an enormous extra. It says enough that Nord put it in their piano banks as a seperate led and Korg didn't even include a new one in the Kronos.

Perhaps Nord reads the sign of musical times/fashions a bit better than Korg, not only in terms of (red) colors?

I do like and use many of the other sounds you created though Kevin!

Post by **Sharp** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:40 pm

I'm just chilling here flicking between all the music channels on the TV and I see no obvious preference for a specific brand. It's a very much “Anything Goes” spread.

Regards
Sharp

laandodeman · Post by **laandodeman** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:44 pm

By the way, yesterday I played a gig with my band Silhouette as support to the Canadian progband Saga in Haarlem (Holland). I came up proudly with my Kronos 88, but Saga's Jim Gilmour had four of them! I can tell you I felt very small

Perhaps he was endorsed, but it looked impressive anyway.