Berlin Grand struggles

[HankKeys]

First of all, I know, that piano sounds are always a matter of personal taste and it's hard to discuss about it...

Anyway:
I'm a big fan of the sound of the Berlin Grand. To my ears it's way more playable and yet "cutting through" than the other choices. But there are some points which I still can't get along with:

The release is too fast. I can edit this in the SGX-2 Engine, but when I do so the bass notes release way to long.

Also the sound decays too fast. I wish it had more sustain, but I almost can play my scales with the sustain pedal pushed down all the time without switching and don't get a muddy sound. This is definitely not what a real grand piano behaves like.

If these points would be solved it would be the perfect piano for me.
Is anybody else getting these "problems"? Or do you have some tips to share to get along with this?

[pedro5]

Do you have similar results with the other SGX pianos ?
Perhaps further trials with the settings may help.

An old video that show some for the earlier pianos may be used as a guide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuAxMHxUVTM

Also,other forum members have posted their own preferences....(for the SGX pianos).

I realise they won't be the same for the newer Berlin Grand,but may provide a starting point etc.

[HankKeys]

Hi Pedro,

thanks for the reply.

No, I don't have this with the other pianos. The German Grand comes close to what I prefer. Just the tone of the Berlin is a little bit better to my ears. Brilliant, yet natural.

I think it's a problem of the actual samples. The attack is very strong and afterwards the sound decays very fast and doesn't have a long sustain.

Thanks for the video. I will have a look.

Has anyone similar experiences with the Berlin?

[SanderXpander]

Normally you'd use a compressor to tailor the attack and sustain portion of a sound to your needs.

[Dniss]

First of all, I know, that piano sounds are always a matter of personal taste and it's hard to discuss about it...

Anyway:
I'm a big fan of the sound of the Berlin Grand. To my ears it's way more playable and yet "cutting through" than the other choices. But there are some points which I still can't get along with:

The release is too fast. I can edit this in the SGX-2 Engine, but when I do so the bass notes release way to long.

Also the sound decays too fast. I wish it had more sustain, but I almost can play my scales with the sustain pedal pushed down all the time without switching and don't get a muddy sound. This is definitely not what a real grand piano behaves like.

If these points would be solved it would be the perfect piano for me.
Is anybody else getting these "problems"? Or do you have some tips to share to get along with this?

Those are good points.

Especially the one about sustain. I've noticed the same thing but never came around posting about it.

[eugenepris]

I couldn't quite understand where my weird feeling after playing the Kronos 2 Berlin Grand was coming from until I read this post. While the character of the grand is very appealing to me, I too find its decay unnatural. It somewhat reminded me the issue I experienced with Kronos 1 where the notes were cutting off(almost like staccato), but that issues was related to a faulty rubber sensor strip under the keybed. It was addressed by the dealer through the replacement of the entire strip per Korg's recall. I will follow this thread to see if anyone has a good tweak for these samples.

Right now, I am leaning towards using my Nord Electro 5D's acoustic grand samples for now. I bought it as an organ, but love it equally for its piano sounds.

Eugene

[Aziz1008]

I wonder how Kronos piano's decay can be unnatural if it is just a live recording of the whole single note, and not looped sample? So then it's rather a mechanical fault of the original sampled piano.. So it should sound like its original. But I just added some reverb, because sympathetic resonance isn't quite realistic to pressing a sustain pedal.

[SanderXpander]

There's a ton that happens between someone playing the note on the original piano and you playing back the sample on your Kronos. My guess is they went for a lower sustain and brighter attack specifically so that it would work better in bands. The main comment on here about the Kronos grands so far was that they don't "punch through the band". Which I personally don't really agree with but that's a different discussion.

In any case, you could try a compressor and some reverb to see if you can improve the sound to your liking.

[Aziz1008]

I thought they sampled it like me pressing a key and waiting till sound fades away completely and then release the key. That is what I mean by a natural decay. Are you saying that when sampling the original piano Korg releases the key too early, until sound ends?

[SanderXpander]

Just a few examples of what affects the sound between the actual piano and you playing back the sample:
1. Choice of microphones
2. Microphone positioning
3. Choice of preamp
4. Choice of compressor during recording and settings on said compressor
5. Any post processing, including clip gaining and more compression/EQ.

Point being, if you're a good engineer and there's a certain sound you're going for, you will aim for that from the get go. Down to picking the specific piano and having it tuned/adjusted for the effect you want to have. I'm pretty sure they created this piano with the idea of having more attack and less sustain. More of a "cut through the band" than a "solo ballad" sound. Honestly, I've played a lot of real grands in band situations and the German Grand suits me just fine. Many people feel it doesn't "cut through" but neither does a real grand the way (e.g.) Roland's 64-voice piano from the JV series did, or a Motif piano does. It's less realistic but I can see the appeal in a busy mix. You can't really have both at the same time, there will be compromises somewhere.

[JFree]

I feel the same thing playing it sometimes, almost as if the notes are getting choked.

[eugenepris]

I am busy today, but recorded a very quick sample of Kronos 2 Berlin grand short/long notes vs Nord's Lady 2 sample for our own reference.

https://clyp.it/x53lgv2i

I should have recorded midi and pushed it to both instruments for apples to apples comparison. Sorry, smarter decisions don't always happen at the right time

When a player hits a note on a real grand piano and immediately releases it, the string resonance and the note sound remain for a short period of time. You will notice that Kronos sample cuts off immediately(and almost entirely) upon the release of the key. Things look better in the low and high octaves, not so much in the middle.

I have also recorded rather short chord progression pieces. Korg followed by the Nord.

https://clyp.it/mi5stf0q

Thanks[/code]

[chris321]

I agree - Berlin Grand cut off to early, this early cut off "effect" sounds not like a naturally grand piano. It sounds great - but the early cut off prevent me to be a fan of the Berlin Grand - any solution for the early cut off problem?

[Thoraldus]

deleted

[burningbusch]

The release is too fast. I can edit this in the SGX-2 Engine, but when I do so the bass notes release way to long.

One trick you might employ is to a duplicate the EXi1 Berlin Grand and put it in EXi2. Now split the two EXis edited with different release times.

Busch.