Songwriting:an analysis from a Pa4x owner/Garageband

[losackmd2]

Post subject: Songwriting:an analysis from a Pa4x owner/Garageband

anyone would love the Kronos for its sounds. i am not trying to start an argument here, only an observation.
An opinion!
If folks like to sit for hours/days and months just doodling with fancy novel arpeggios and nice timbres power to you!
But I've found thats all many do with this unit.

I also cannot find a single persons SONG ( words and music ) from a KRONOS and VOCAL CHORDS

i know many who read this will question their usage of KRONOS
even if its a minority will agree .

Many folks just like copying others material, thats fine

but

listening to long intricate waveforms , intricate loops, monotonous drum rhythms now known as songs..... with 100 midi notes shooting all over the place, what does this lead to ?

Most keyboards can do this. I can't tell the difference between PIANO A or B or C with my eyes shut and with a little reverb and eQ.
Its the SONG that counts. Not the EF1 or Ef 2 or CHORUS etc etc etc



After viewing 100's of yt videos
you see either a long boring ( "so what " ) tutorial or a demo which usually features great pianists playing piano pieces,
that can be done on most if not all pianos ....

no words no singing no verses no choruses no SONGS!


Just Playing music which is subjective and of course wonderful...i agree the KRONOS fits a bill but it can't approach the PA4x for songwriting

those who want a songwriting tool i don't think the KRONOS comes close to it unless
and this is my point you spend months learning the real innards of the machine and
learn how to get appropriate drum fills and well orchestrated pieces.

Doesn't fatigue set in with one combi played over and over and over again and getting nowhere except hungry and bored
and frustrated. Ok you start playing combi 078, you fall in love with it ( an example ) and then you want to shift to a more complex or less complex variation with a drum fill .
how in the world do you do it with KRONOS???


Do people write songs with the Kronos? or do they just play the same MONOTONOUS grooves or beats or arpeggiations over and over and over again till its dinner time?

a song needs one to :

1.sing words
2.play backing instruments

the learning curve in Kronos is too long for me and people like me and in the end not worth the effort.
maybe for a quick commercial break or an intro to a radio show............

People don't say : Hey i hear that KRONOS.....
they say Wow i love that melody or beat or rhythm or those words or that SONG !

The BEATLES didn't sit and tweak synths. The greatest songwriters in the world used ONE PIANO, or one GUITAR

The writer of House of Cards theme uses a few live instruments.

What do you do with that hard worked at overly tweaked sound? Loop it, for the sake of looping it. Proud that you have dozens of tweaked strings.
Are there awards for having 10000000 pcgs?

How many KRONOS users actually post their work?
i am guesstimating very few

What are you all going to do with them. they lay on a HD forever. What is the final product? After all that attention paid to tweaking a sound, what is the reward?

A song writer would certainly be better off with a top of the line PA or Tyros 5, or a piano or a guitar..............
most songs have been written on PIANOS

I think this technology has to be put in perspective.
Most of the fame is MARKETING

what has happened is one thinks they will play like the pros with a machine if they buy it and it just isn't true.

The great thing is that if you have talent and decent chops you don't need these overly intricate instruments to get a terrific product.
in fact another point I'm making is that if you have talent you should just put your song out there on a piano or guitar
cos its the SONG what counts

The ugly point I'm gonna make here is that Most folks don't have much talent are mediocre and hoard tons of modules and synths thinking it is
the magic route to creativity . WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!

Garageband for example.... you laugh ... but it can get you an amazing song if you know what you're doing.
you don't need anything more expensive.

LESS IS MORE
MORE IS LESS

thanks for listening
thanks for indulging me

i do not want to offend anyone

I've just been watching 3 decades of music production and the instruments used to make it and not much has changed
Talent is talent, skill is skill is skill.... a camera is a camera it won't get you better photos

i am selling my KRONOS which i played for 20 minutes and realized it wasn't for me.........
2300 usd in ManHatTan ....

good luck to all

https://www.flickr.com/photos/glosackmd/
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ackmd&aq=f

[GregC]

Last month I started a post about song creation/writing on the Kronos.

I don't believe you saw it.

Popular music has changed greatly since the 60's/70's. Most of my cover material is from these 2 decades. Melody was king back then.

The Kronos is absolutely fabulously essential and inspirational to this cover material. Most of my cover tunes have at least 10 tracks/programs/timbers.

I can't respond to all your statements. We just have different experiences on the Kronos and song creation.

Kronos is a song creator's dream.

[geoelectro]

I have been playing keyboards for over forty years. My early keyboards were a Hammond, Fender Rhodes, Arp Oddssey, Arp String Ensmble. Over 600 lbs of equipment.

Now, with a single Kronos I not only have all those sounds, but new sounds I couldn't imagine. I don't write music so I can't respond to your statements about writhing. But playing live, the Kronos has been my ultimate machine. I also like to tweak and customize sounds, which isn't for everyone.

Geo

[losackmd2]

thats what I'm talking about

songwriting!

[amit]

People have their own different needs and understandings.
if you don't know what the right tools is for the your job at hand, it's not fault of the tool.

A Song Needs one to sing words : You are mistaken, There are a million instrumental songs in every genre without a sung word!!!. let alone classical music. I know technically they are not songs but music.

So No, it's more likely just the songs that you like/play. does not apply to everyone as people write music too.

Play backing instruments : This says it all, you chose the wrong tool. Am not trying to argue with you here. But if you needed a one man band type of keyboard then the arrangers types of keyboards is what you should have gotten. That is what they are designed for and do a fantastic job at that.

My Observation:
1: Kronos itself is an instrument. That is it's the most versatile instrument with nine engines (including physical modeling) and Karma it was a big reason for me , and arps are just a small part of it,it really shines when you use it as part of sound design, learning which takes time)
2: I bought kronos after owning an arranger and use both, neither can replace the other. They are different tools for different jobs. Trying to use a hammer for a screwdriver is only going to mess things up.

3: The greatest songwriters in the world used ONE PIANO, or one GUITAR , it's funny that you mentioned "play baking instruments" a while back.

The BEATLES didn't sit and tweak synths : Try doing some research (maybe they didn't tell you) Paul mc Cartney and Mellotron /CS80/Prophet5

and finally with all due respect
what anyone does with what sounds they make is none of your business.
for a lot of folks here that is their bread and livelihood.
lots of sounds made on keyboards and synths like kronos eventually end up in romplers or libraries for arranger keyboards.

I understand your frustration, but try not to ridicule the intelligence and livelihood of others.

Try to live with and learn from the choice you made instead of telling others about their choices because their reasons and priorities are much different than your use case.

My money is as hard earned as anyone else and I own many guitars,Many amplifiers and many keyboards and will make these same mistakes /choices again and again If given the chance


p.s. : Just wondering why too go through the pain/frustration of writing the song yourself when you can find plenty someone to do that for you .

[losackmd2]

1.Song | Definition of a Song by Merriam-Webster
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/song
Merriam‑Webster
Simple Definition of song. : a short piece of music with words that are sung.
i am not mistaken....

2. i have the PA 4x and GARAGEBAND I HAVE GREAT TOOLS. i know the exact tools i need. Not the KRONOS!

3. let me hear your work with KARMA and your songs on KRONOS please !
i would like to learn. Would love to hear what you have done. I mean that seriously !

4. Most of the Beatle tunes if not all started with a guitar or a piano.
Many started with an idea and no instrument at all. other instruments were used but not solely only in some of the songs like PENNY LANE and you're right STRAWBERRY fields. For no one, Tomorrow never knows, Im only sleeping but the main song was started on GUITAR or PIANO or with an iDEA as did every single song in the AMERICAN songbook.

5. I knew you and others would be DEFENSIVE. I touched a chord.
I stand by everything and every single word i said. I meant no harm
Many cannot take someone elses opinion. You obviously disagree but
its not meant to be personal. Your facts are wrong!

6, Where is the ridicule? where is my comment about others intelligence?

7. thank you for teaching me how to try to live with and learn from the choices i make. I surely will take your advice. As i send back the KRONOS
and settle in with my PA4x.

a pleasure

[lonelagranger]

I think you need more than 20 minutes of playing to give the Kronos a fair evaluation. I play arrangers also. I have Korg, Yamaha and Roland arrangers. They are fun and yes you can get a finished product easily. Is it better than the Kronos? It's all subjective. I like the Kronos. I agree it is complicated but probably more flexible composition wise than an arranger. I believe any of todays top of the line instruments are complex and require a lot of study to get the best out of them. That includes arrangers. They are not necessarily a piece of cake to play. To play well, anyway. Wishing you the best of luck in your musical endeavors. I am sure you Korg PA4X is wonderful. I wish I had one.

[losackmd2]

thank you
you are right

but i spent hours & hours on you tube watching the unit in all its aspects
and took a chance
learned my lesson

best to you

[amit]

thanks
, that was expected and much appreciated.

A Song Needs one to sing words : You are mistaken, There are a million instrumental songs in every genre without a sung word!!!. let alone classical music. I know technically they are not songs but music.

Sorry that the entire world does not go by the definitions in merriam-webster or other dictionaries. The World is diverse, different cultures may have different music systems and what a song means for them),

1:A Song does not need to have Music with it, (thought you'd know better)
and people do play covers of songs through instruments (called instrumentals where even the vocal/sung part is done with instruments for example : piano, sax, etc)

You are correct you touched a note or two and some people (like me who have some time to waste in moot discussions and are here in forums to learn and share) would be on the defensive,
because it's easy deduce from the sarcasm from your statements that anyone who does not agree with you is either stupid or made a mistake by buyinga this keyboard since it's the keyboard that does not let you write the songs you want to write.

Your frustration is understood that is not the right tool for you, but let others judge for themselves what works for the song writing.

Sorry I don't know much about old times as I only started with computers and music around 1995) but for sure know that Arrangers came way after the synthesizers and Romplers Came,and people have been writing songs and music for an eternity with all sorts of instruments.

You can write a song with any instrument even with percussion. it's the all else that makes the one tool better than the other for whatever music.

[19naia]

I never played the PA-x of any series. I guess 4 is the latest.
I did check out the PA-X specs before buying any rig.
I settled on the kronos because i knew all i would be missing is the on board TC-Helicon for vocal enhancements and the drum fill options.
I already knew i prefered the DR-880 drum machine selections, and that i am not a vocalist. I would be interested in a vocal harmonizer/autotuner regardless -but for applications that would just as easily be filled by a computer loaded with plugins and a decent DAW base to work from.

The PA-x would give me extras but not necessarily the right ones or enough.
So i would still have to get the DR-880 any way which would render the PA-X fills to garbage compared to ^^^^.
The Kronos and in fact way back to Triton, had very nice beats and it was nice to layer them with the dr-880 fills and intros and endings and regular beats. Also i was able to go into pattern-RPPR and work out step recording over the preset beats to create Fills even though my skills at that are limited. I plan to get into loading the drum machine songs into Kronos as midi files and basically having better than the PA-x fills in the kronos. Kronos has the room for it if it can be loaded on board. I hope they can port over as midi files.
Just one compact drum machine and a laptop stuffed with software is all i need along side the Kronos. Thats what i decided because it would still be the same trio if i decided on PA-X. I would still rely on the laptop software and the compact drum machine either way.
So why worry about the extras on the PA-x when i will be getting those out of software via laptop any way???
Kronos gives me features the PA-x doesn't and my desired drum machine and software gives me more than any features PA-x would give me. PA-x couldn't come close to that trio.
The Kronos sound quality, 88-key bed, and flexibility is my main interest. The other thing is history, i went from a straight acoustic Piano player to basic synths without working much with sequencers or sound design. Just something to practice and play out on with bands.
Then i got the Triton Extreme which was the the spring board for Kronos. Its where Oasys came up from and Oasys raised the bar significantly, then Kronos followed in roughly the same system but with much more power and memory.
The triton is where i first got into electronic style music and working with beats rather than following a live drummer in a band. It really changed my style and set me in a new direction. My basic piano playing skills made it easy for me to work wonders on korg triton through to kronos. Dull piano pieces now became my favorite to play in a well designed combi -with arps, beats and a small smattering of Karma these days.
I dont have to struggle to play like the jazz masters to fill in enough to go solo and sound big. I do enough jazz to go solo but i can jump the genre and sound electronic and acoustic in one mix and do more than i could in just a traditional band. Even Guitarist love to play with me on keys because of that dynamic sound that seems like a full band. PA-x does that, but....
My playing style has changed and was shaped by The kronos and its predeccesors, so i stick with it to continue to let it shape me. I composed a few new and fovorite songs on the Korg triton extrme Combis and i wouldnt know where to begin with those songs if i didnt stick with the legacy they came from. I was able to recreate my triton combis on Kronos and do them even better because of better sound and over all powerful hardware ,including the 88 key feel.
I am sure the PA-x would do the same if i gave it the chance when i first got into Korg in 2007, but the kronos and it's legacy won the bid. I gave PA-x a look and it doesn't do well enough to match the Kronos with a dr-880 and a laptop full of plugins around a decent DAW. And with the right skills, the Kronos can give you endless beats, fills, intros, endings and the next thing avantgarde if you are weird enough.
Eventually i see myself narrowing down to just the drum machine, laptop-Macbook with Logic,MainStage for my combi needs, but still i would rather have Kronos as the key bed for that even if it isn't a great controller. I dont mind doing my controls on screen as long as the keys split and velocity according to the layers set up on screen. I set all the details up before live shows anyway and just scroll from one sound to the next for the songs. The rest is studio work or practice sessions where there is more time and ease to work in.

No point in having PA-x when i already know where to find better sources for the things it offers above and beyond Kronos. I need the Kronos sounds and i am a composer rather than a cover song player. I couldn't even play a cover song without composing my own version of it before learning the original song inside and out. I like to come up with stuff from scratch at every level of the music, and having pre made fills and intros is only a recipe for staying stuck in a prescribed genre of music. So Kronos allows a lot of creativity from scratch and the Dr-880 gives a better variety of fills and flexibilty for evoloving those or creating new ones on board with the easy compose feature.

Kronos is as limited as the person's skill in digging into its features and putting them together creatively. Same with a guitar or acoustic piano, they are only as limited as the players ability to dig into the strings and keys for note combinations and pace. Acoustic guitar players who throw rocks in the guitar hollows to help make rythmic sounds to contrast while slapping the wood for beats as the fingers pluck the strings. Kronos is like that. You get out what you put into it.
Truth is, if i was a drummer and knew how to easily make nice beats from scratch, i would only need the Kronos and a laptop. I may eventually get there, because the kronos has it in it just waiting for me to rise to the skill level. I already did one impressive set of beats which was a bit of overdubbing on preset beats. Also layering multiple preset beats for hybrid beats. All kinds of stuff just waiting to come out of Kronos if you give it more than just a day or two of exploration. Its like a guitar or piano, you get out of it what skill you bring to it. Even faking music in life requires skill to convince people its real or at least have them enjoy it.
I have the kronos for what it's worth, to first and foremost enjoy it and learn it for growing my skills to one day be worthy of it.


For now, i will settle for just being able to afford it and enjoy it

[karmathanever]

Hi losackmd2

Interesting post - some very thought-provoking comments.

I will just give a short reply which does not address everything you posted BUT because I do have a PA4X AND Kronos.

Firstly, I would never part with my Kronos and I do not agree that the PA is "better" than the Kronos for song-writing - they are equally as powerful in that regard.
Secondly, the Kronos is not an arranger so we have a little bit of a "chalk-and-cheese" comparison here.
With respect and with no offence intended, it is impossible to play a Kronos for 20 minutes and make that decision.
I like to play live and also record.
YES, PA4X is incredibly inspirational but so is the Kronos - for example, the combis (and programs) with the unbelievable "KARMA" control surface functions are incredible for writing songs
with an amazing on-board 32 track sequencer (16-MIDI, 16 audio).
Yes, Garageband, Band-in-a-box and other software are also inspirational for song writing.

I say all this in a friendly manner and would STRONGLY advise you to do more on your Kronos BEFORE selling up.
You need at least a few hours on it - but then that would also apply to someone reviewing a pa4X

Do people write songs with the Kronos? or do they just play the same MONOTONOUS grooves or beats or arpeggiations over and over and over again till its dinner time?
...
Doesn't fatigue set in with one combi played over and over and over again and getting nowhere except hungry and bored
and frustrated. Ok you start playing combi 078, you fall in love with it ( an example ) and then you want to shift to a more complex or less complex variation with a drum fill .
how in the world do you do it with KRONOS???
...

These comments clearly demonstrate that you have done virtually nothing with the Kronos.
If you seriously think the Kronos is MONOTONOUS, then you haven't played it - it is the least "monotonous" workstation on the market.
Would advise that you understand the power of "KARMA" - I wish my PA4X had it!!!

Please don't make a mistake selling the Kronos - OK, after some dedicated time on it, you still may not want it but judging it after only playing it for 20 minutes could be a fatal "musical" mistake.

The Kronos-PA4X combination is brilliant.
There is no other keyboard that comes close to what the Kronos can do.

But, again, if you don't like it then that is your choice, which I fully respect - no argument from me but someone could write the same comments about any modern high-end keyboard after only 20 minutes of playing.
I am not defending the Kronos - simply hoping you will give it a fair trial as I think you would love its song-writing and inspirational functions.

Cheers

Pete

[SeedyLee]

I din't know if I'm in the minority or not, but I absolutely use the Kronos as a songwriting tool.

I use the sequencer extensively, including the hard disk recorder and audio input for recording and manipulating external sounds, including my (bad) vocals, an acoustic piano and various other synthesisers.

I don't use any of the inbuilt patterns or combos, though I use the RPPR feature to develop my own patterns.

I spend quite a bit of time designing my own sounds and effects to my taste, including sampling.

I use it in the same way many people would use a PC, it's just a preference on my part.

[QuiRobinez]

i think you have made the right decision, when reading your comments: sell the kronos immediately!

The kronos is definitely not a workstation for your workflow.
If i read your comments than your songwriting is based on Midi styles of a keyboard, of course song writing is a lot more then just playing a few chord progressions and write some lyrics on top of it. Keyboards will take a lot of that work out of your hands for you by giving you predefined styles and patterns to play on top of it.

The kronos isn't a keyboard, it can't do that, there you have to do all the songwriting work yourself. Just like other synths like a moog, virus ti, nord leads, Motif XF / Montage etc.. Those are synths / workstations, they are used primarely for giving your great sounds to work with for your style of music. So it's completely different compared to a Keyboard that helps you a lot with playing tunes.

The kronos can give you ideas by using KARMA as an inspirational tool, when you have written your song and you need to have an addon pattern and you have no idea what to add, then you could experiment with KARMA to give you ideas for your song, but this takes time to learn how to do that, that isn't possible in 20 minutes. But the kronos will never give you 80 percent of your complete song like a keyboard will do for your song writing process.

So i think you are right, in your case it is possible to detect in 20 minutes that this isn't the solution for you, so it's a good thing to sell it in your situation, you are not the only one with this opinion, it's a big step going from keyboards to synths / workstations.

That you won't find any songs on youtube is caused by the strong policy youtube has, most people play covers and when you upload a cover that is very close to the original then you get at least a warning and if you are unlucky you will get a strike, three strikes on youtube will has a result that your youtube channel will be disabled, so most people won't take that change and don't upload their songs to youtube.

[kronoSphere]

To losackmd2
What a curious state of mind is yours !
Sure anyone here has bought a Kronos for making or/and even writing music.

Writing a song is a hell of a thing. Kronos makes it more acceptable !

[karmathanever]

Comments like:-

...The ugly point I'm gonna make here is that Most folks don't have much talent are mediocre and hoard tons of modules and synths thinking it is
the magic route to creativity . WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!! .....
..and...
Your facts are wrong!

Sorry guys/gals - I think this is just a contradictory and pointless "wind-up".
I innocently got caught up.

I thought he was wanting our thoughts and feedback regarding arranger vs. workstation keyboards regarding song/tune-writing.... not so it seems.