New Kronos user who is blind

[dfibraio]

Some time ago, I posted here asking about accessibility of the Kronos for a person with no sight. I had given up on the idea, and also, I couldn't afford to buy the keyboard. I managed to come across an open box Korg Kronos 2, 61 key and grabbed it, since it was discounted, maybe against my better judgement. Having the Kronos here in my room, I've gone through the sounds and love them. However, the touch screen stops me at every turn, even just to load in new sound banks. I've been a Kronos fan since its inception as I was with other Korg keyboards in the past and I do own a King Korg as well. While the logical side of my brain thinks I should probably return the Kronos due to its inaccessibility, the hopeful side of me decided to at least make an attempt to get some use out of this keyboard beyond its presets before boxing it back up. I have just under 60 days to make this useful beyond its presets or it is going to have to go back to Guitar Center and one blind guy will have a broken heart.

I had posted some time ago pondering on if the Korg editor could be made screen reader friendly either to the voice over screen reader n the mac or in Windows. It seems we've gotten nowhere on that, nor have we gotten any advancements on the Korg operating system to enhance the external keyboard functionality to allow us to edit by tabbing through the options on screen. I did see somebody had created an overlay to put on the screen that would make it somewhat doable, but those posts seem to be from some time ago.

So, her I am, Kronos 61 on the second tier of my keyboard stand. What can we do to make this usable for a blind person? I seem to recall this being a quite active forum, and there are some smart and talented people here, so I hope a solution can be found, even if I have to pay somebody for one. My main focus for Kronos use is editing in program and combi mode, being able to load in exs libraries and other sounds, and making set lists. I am not nterested in the sequencer. So, where do we begin?

[burningbusch]

I don't know how much this will help you, but there are shortcuts for the page menu commands. This is from the manual.

"Each page has a set of menu commands, which provide access to different utilities, commands, and options, depending on the page you’re currently on. You can use the menu commands entirely from the touch-screen, by pressing the menu button in the upper right-hand corner of the screen and then selecting an option from the menu that appears.

Even though each page may have its own unique menu commands, the menus are standardized as much as possible. For instance, WRITE is almost always the first menu item in Program, Combination, and Sequence modes.
You can take advantage of this standardization by using a shortcut to access any of the first ten menu items:

1. Hold down the ENTER key.
2. Press a number (0-9) on the numeric keypad to select the desired menu command, starting with 0.
For instance, press 0 for the first menu command, 1 for the second, and so on.
If the menu command just toggles an option on and off (such as Exclusive Solo), then you’re done. If the command calls up a dialog box, the dialog will appear on the LCD, and you can proceed just as if you’d selected the command from the touch-screen."

You would certainly need to memorize or have notes about all of these functions, but at least this is a very precise way of accessing them.

Busch.

[ando727]

Honestly, I think the Kronos is one the least suitable instruments for a blind person you could possibly find. The touchscreen can be tricky even for fully sighted people to use - it's common to have to touch a screen button or selection twice because it's not 100% accurate. Add to that the fact that there are literally thousands of menus and tiny controls. I just don't see any way through this unless you had somebody assisting you to set up your own sounds and then just access them in setlist mode where the buttons are large. But editing - no I think that's impossible if you can't see the screen.

I would find something that has hardware buttons rather than a touch screen.

[dfibraio]

I don't know how much this will help you, but there are shortcuts for the page menu commands. This is from the manual.

"Each page has a set of menu commands, which provide access to different utilities, commands, and options, depending on the page you’re currently on. You can use the menu commands entirely from the touch-screen, by pressing the menu button in the upper right-hand corner of the screen and then selecting an option from the menu that appears.

Even though each page may have its own unique menu commands, the menus are standardized as much as possible. For instance, WRITE is almost always the first menu item in Program, Combination, and Sequence modes.
You can take advantage of this standardization by using a shortcut to access any of the first ten menu items:

1. Hold down the ENTER key.
2. Press a number (0-9) on the numeric keypad to select the desired menu command, starting with 0.
For instance, press 0 for the first menu command, 1 for the second, and so on.
If the menu command just toggles an option on and off (such as Exclusive Solo), then you’re done. If the command calls up a dialog box, the dialog will appear on the LCD, and you can proceed just as if you’d selected the command from the touch-screen."

You would certainly need to memorize or have notes about all of these functions, but at least this is a very precise way of accessing them.

Busch.

Hi, and thanks for the reply. This is a good start, but this doesn't work for anything outside of the menu. For instance, and I'm doing this from memory of how Korgs generally work, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but your solution only exists for items in the menu. I know if I hit edit in a particular mode, say patch mode, I can get to the edit options for the sound I'm on. Enter plus number moves me to a page of that edit mode, however, the individual options do not have that shortcut enabled as well, so you still have to touch the screen. I wonder if the control surface, i.e. the knobs and sliders would have any impact here, but I doubt it. Would be useful if they did.

[dfibraio]

Honestly, I think the Kronos is one the least suitable instruments for a blind person you could possibly find. The touchscreen can be tricky even for fully sighted people to use - it's common to have to touch a screen button or selection twice because it's not 100% accurate. Add to that the fact that there are literally thousands of menus and tiny controls. I just don't see any way through this unless you had somebody assisting you to set up your own sounds and then just access them in setlist mode where the buttons are large. But editing - no I think that's impossible if you can't see the screen.

I would find something that has hardware buttons rather than a touch screen.

Hi. Yes, I understand your point. A bunch of my blind friends think I am a complete moron for buying this, even at the deal I got it for. But I just love the sounds in this thing. I've listened to all the exs library demos and I love the potential this keyboard offers. I figured I'd at least make an effort to try before I give up and take it back to the store. There's no harm in that and at least I can say I tried, even though it would suck to have to return such a beautiful soundin ginstrument.

[voip]

This topic came up in the M50 forum in mid August. If someone is visually impaired, rather than totally blind, then it might be possible to make the screen more easily readable. This link might give some idea of what's out there:

http://shop.rnib.org.uk/magnification/v ... fiers.html

The systems seem very expensive; economies of scale cannot be brought to bear on keeping the cost down. I'm sure it could be done more cheaply, though, using a standard video input-capable monitor, video camera, and an adjustable stand, such as a microphone stand or an Anglepoise type stand.

There are also portable video magnifiers being sold on eBay that might be worth a look.

Or the PC-Eye from Steller:

http://www.steller-technology.co.uk/pc_eye

A suitable mount to hold any such system above the Kronos screen would be necessary, although that might consist of a simple block or box to raise the base of the camera mount high enough.

The Pearl and Open Book system shown in the first link looks as if it might have sufficient adjustment to be usable out of the box.

The cost might be offsettable by disability grants or there may be charitable organisations. The American Foundation for the Blind may be able to offer assistance, although their website seems broken at the moment: http://www.afb.org

Also possibly useful:
www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10052.pdf

There is also an app for the iPhone (possibly iPad also?) that allows the device to be used as a magnifier. Search for "Magnifier with light+zoom
By michael heinz".

For someone who is totally blind, or has very poor vision, then two free apps from Apple, "SayText" and "Text Detective" might be OK for reading out the text from the Kronos screen when the device's camera is pointed at it. I have no experience of these, but would be interested to hear if anyone has tried them out on musical keyboards.

PS: If the Kronos is giving you a lot of pleasure, I would say don't take it back!! Just don't. Don't even think about it!! Playing music can be extremely therapeutic, and there are no bad side effects!! (Except spending more money on expansion libraries and the like).

.

[dfibraio]

This topic came up in the M50 forum in mid August. If someone is visually impaired, rather than totally blind, then it might be possible to make the screen more easily readable. This link might give some idea of what's out there:

http://shop.rnib.org.uk/magnification/v ... fiers.html

The systems seem very expensive; economies of scale cannot be brought to bear on keeping the cost down. I'm sure it could be done more cheaply, though, using a standard video input-capable monitor, video camera, and an adjustable stand, such as a microphone stand or an Anglepoise type stand.

There are also portable video magnifiers being sold on eBay that might be worth a look.

Or the PC-Eye from Steller:

http://www.steller-technology.co.uk/pc_eye

A suitable mount to hold any such system above the Kronos screen would be necessary, although that might consist of a simple block or box to raise the base of the camera mount high enough.

The Pearl and Open Book system shown in the first link looks as if it might have sufficient adjustment to be usable out of the box.

The cost might be offsettable by disability grants or there may be charitable organisations. The American Foundation for the Blind may be able to offer assistance, although their website seems broken at the moment: http://www.afb.org

Also possibly useful:
www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10052.pdf

There is also an app for the iPhone (possibly iPad also?) that allows the device to be used as a magnifier. Search for "Magnifier with light+zoom
By michael heinz".

For someone who is totally blind, or has very poor vision, then two free apps from Apple, "SayText" and "Text Detective" might be OK for reading out the text from the Kronos screen when the device's camera is pointed at it. I have no experience of these, but would be interested to hear if anyone has tried them out on musical keyboards.



.

Hi. I have a program for my IPhone called KNFB Reader which takes a picture and performs optical character recognition to read it back. I tried it on the Kronos screens. It reads somewhat OK, but it isn't great for trying to figure out where on the touch screen you have to press to do what you want to do.

I think the best option would be an external librarian/editor that would be screen reader friendly and used from the MaC, or PC or even an IPAD or IPhone. It probably just needs somebody with the knowledge to write it or modify the existing one to work better.

[voip]

The Kronos Editor, downloadable from the Korg website, might be able to take advantage of the built in operating system's visibility tools to make it more usable, especially when coupled with a large screen. The Kronos Editor gives access to just about everything that can be modified on the Kronos.

.

[dfibraio]

The Kronos Editor, downloadable from the Korg website, might be able to take advantage of the built in operating system's visibility tools to make it more usable, especially when coupled with a large screen. The Kronos Editor gives access to just about everything that can be modified on the Kronos.

.

Hi. The problem with this is that I am not low vision. I am no vision. Sadly, there isn't a monitor large enough to help me. I use screen reading technology to access my computer and do not read large print at all, so this option is not going to work. Thanks for the help though.

[voip]

I've just tried using a free program called NVDA Screen Reader with the Kronos Editor running on a Windows PC.

NVDA can read and convert the the menu bar at the top of the Editor screen into audio and can also do the same with some of the drop down selections associated with some of the parameters. That much is good. However, much of the text in the Kronos Editor was not readable by NVDA, so it would be unusable in its present form.

The Screen Reader seems to rely on some sort of text hooks, like tooltips, to detect the text. Perhaps the software engineers who wrote the Kronos Editor would be able to implement the necessary changes in the program to make it readable. It would open up usability of the Kronos Editor software to a sizeable market. Out of 300 million blind people around the world, I'm sure some would be interested in this.

Would Braille labels next to the various buttons and controls be an option to help using features like Karma during live play?

.

[dfibraio]

I've just tried using a free program called NVDA Screen Reader with the Kronos Editor running on a Windows PC.

NVDA can read and convert the the menu bar at the top of the Editor screen into audio and can also do the same with some of the drop down selections associated with some of the parameters. That much is good. However, much of the text in the Kronos Editor was not readable by NVDA, so it would be unusable in its present form.

The Screen Reader seems to rely on some sort of text hooks, like tooltips, to detect the text. Perhaps the software engineers who wrote the Kronos Editor would be able to implement the necessary changes in the program to make it readable. It would open up usability of the Kronos Editor software to a sizeable market. Out of 300 million blind people around the world, I'm sure some would be interested in this.

Would Braille labels next to the various buttons and controls be an option to help using features like Karma during live play?

.

HI. Interesting. I work in the assistive technology field myself, so I have some experience with this stuff. My guess is that Korg, like most, draw the info on the screen as opposed to using standard windows programming conventions, plus they probably don't have any kind of tab order or extensive keyboard shortcuts. This is usually done when people are designing a mac and pc version of a program, probably to keep design simpler across multiple platforms. I wonder if the option to use an ocr engine to recognize the screen may open up some possibilities. I will have to try this. I have yet to install the Kronos editor on my MacBook and try it with voice over. I'm also honestly surprised that nobody has tried to make an IPad editor for the Kronos, since it would be highly convenient overall. Wonder if that is even a possibility.

[Darkside]

Hi. Being a totally blind synthesizer freak myself, I just can't understand that "may-be it's still possible" approach with touch screen equipped instruments. Yes, it can work to most extent, but only on simpler devices. For example on Korg Volca series it's no problem where step areas on the touchpad correspond to the notes, so it's possible to navigate between steps according to the notes they play, like when wanting to change the osc1 wave on the Volca bass you have to count notes upto 8 as that function is on step 8 and then activate it by touching the pad at a correct position while holding down the function button. On my Yamaha ReFace dx I could cheet the system by simply having sighted persone to mark out the areas between four touch sliders with small tape strips, so that they sort of become physically separated sliders as well. This was possible only because of the fact, that on the dx those touch sliders while changing functions and even behaviour, never change position or size. I have been told, that they are visible even when the instrument is turned off, so staying always in one place. Without that small modification the instrument would be completely unusable because of not being able to access most of it's functions. But when it comes to bigger and smarter devices, I wouldn't even think about trying to cope with their inaccessible status and still hope that something could be done to make them work better. I'm not trying to show extreme pessimism, but instead try to encourage other blind users to be more realistic and concious about choices in technology to use. None of the music instrument manufacturers will probably ever be interested in for example giving the option of a screenreader on the instrument though technically it should be completely possible. While many of Korg's products can be quite nicely accessible and learnable with no sight, the accompanying software editors and librarians are certainly not that good. I can use the R3 editor only as a librarian to backup, send or receive patches, but as the structure of the synthesizer was so easy to learn, I don't care much about the editor part. I also use the Microsampler editor again just to load samples into banks, send and receive banks between the sampler and computer. But here I need to use OCR technology to access some of the buttons. The classic Microkorg has only the fully accessible editor, but again the synth itself is so easy, that I don't need to use software to edit it, only for backups. In the end I still wish all the luck to other blind synthesizer nerds, but hope for better awareness when choosing the instruments. Yes, it's nice to be able to play the electronic instrument, but as synthesizers are made as well for creating each user's own personality soundwise, it would be quite a big loss not to be able to use the full functionality of these great machines.

[Pouyakhoshgoo]

Hello!
I'm the guy who made that overlaying touch pad!
I sent the 3D file to a blind friend of mine and he actually got it printed.
I should say it works fine(not 100% accurate but better than nothing).
The only problem is learning memorizing where every tick box or number or parameter is, so that you can find its location bu counting the dots on the touch pad. And that my friend, seems almost impossible. Because every page looks so different to the other one, and there are just so many things on every single page!
I know that he somehow managed to use his Kronos by connecting it to the PC and use Sonar Cakewalk with it.
He told me that Sonar Cakewalk knows Kronos very well and it also has alot its sounds and programs in it.
So using that, he is now able to sequence songs.

Unfortunately i dont know much about how he does all these,
But if you want i can connect you guys together so you can talk directly.

[amit]

The kronos editor is a simplified version of midiquest / sound quest editor which supports a lot of synths.

They are members of this forum, I would suggest requesting them to take for one accessibility into consideration and perhaps do an accessible version or make all the textual labels etc accessible with proper tab stop / Indexes.

Having said that, a lot of kronos stuff is done via sysex so an alternate accessible app can be developed (If some dev interested) with the critical feature all accessible to screen Readers in general.

Without that I am afraid kronos seems quite a bit in its own and near impossible for visually impaired.

[bobmusic]

some smart and talented people here, so I hope a solution can be found, even if I have to pay somebody for one.

The only possible solution that I see is doing it in teamwork. You have to find a friendly person (coach) who sits with you at the Kronos.

Starting with the Setlist-Page, programming lots and lots of Set Lists.

Maybe it's possible for you to get comfortable with the Set List screen, so that you could edit Set List.

Going further you could work out together some standard configuration of physical controllers, on Kronos or external, to tweak and change your sounds in realtime.

And yes, keep this instrument and good luck!