Help! MIDI Latency when using pitch bend/modulation

V-man · Post by **V-man** » Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:38 pm

Hi, scary Midi latency issue here!

I have a Kronos 2 61 connected to a Roland Integra 7 via Midi out from Kronos to Midi in on the Integra.

When I play a Synth Lead sound on the Integra 7 and use the joystick on the Kronos to perform modulation of the lead sound there is heavy midi latency occuring! There is no latency when playing without modulation or pitch bend operations.

To make some testing, I then use the same midi cable and connect it from my Yamaha S90ES midi out and then play the same Integra 7 Synth Lead sound from the S90ES and use the S90ES modulation wheel there is no Midi latency at all.

And what's even more scary is that if I, in the combi that is selected (from where I've assigned one part to EXT2 to control the Integra), go into that parts midi settings and disable JS+Y and JS-Y, the Midi latency issue still persist when I move the joystick up or down while I'm playing the Integra sound!!! The modulation effect gets disabled but the latency issue persist in the same severe way than before.

If I use the Kronos joystick to do modulation on a internal Kronos synth lead sound there is no latency occuring.

Does any one have any idea what's causing this Midi latency behaviour?!

KingKronos · Post by **KingKronos** » Sat Feb 06, 2021 4:42 am

Not having that issue here. Pitch ben dfrom the Kronos to the Integra works as expected. Do you have a MIDI loop somewhere?

V-man · Post by **V-man** » Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:18 am

KingKronos wrote:Not having that issue here. Pitch ben dfrom the Kronos to the Integra works as expected. Do you have a MIDI loop somewhere?

Hi, no MIDI loop, if it is the connection you refer to. Only MIDI out from Kronos to MIDI in on the Integra. There is no issue when using left-right pitch bend movement. The problems occur when I do modulation, up-down movement.

geoelectro · Post by **geoelectro** » Sat Feb 06, 2021 2:41 pm

If you look at the MIDI data from the Kronos with a MIDI editor you will likely see multiple MIDI channels of data. If the Integra is reading more than the one channel it may be getting swamped by all the PB data.

It's usually up to the MIDI receiver to filter out what it doesn't need.
For example, if the Integra was set to OMNI it would indeed receive and react to all MIDI channels. The Kronos transmits on the purposed channel you set up AND also on the Global channel. It always transmits on the Global channel. This can duplicate the data stream and with continuous controllers clog up the MIDI stream pretty fast.

Geo

V-man · Post by **V-man** » Sat Feb 06, 2021 3:38 pm

Hmm, I notice a peculiar behaviour and that is If I only have one part in the combi working as the EXT2 controller there is no problem with modulation operations and midi latency, but If I add one more EXT2 controller to another part in the combi the latency issue occures. Like this:

1. I take an empty initialized combi

2. Part/Timber 1 I set to EXT2, Midi ch 14 (Studio Set receive channel on the Integra), MSB=85 and LSB=0. I also set the program number on the part to be 003. This to make this part send program change to the Integra so it selects the Studio Set that I want, in this case Studio Set nbr 04.

3. Part/Timber 2 in the Kronos combi I set to EXT2 and Midi ch 4. MSB=0 and LSB=0. This to play the Integra Studio Set sound that listens to Midi ch 4.

4. I now have two parts in the combi on EXT2, one that do the program change message and on part that I use for playing the sound on Midi ch 4 on the Integra.

This set up causes severe midi latency when I use modulation on the Kronos joystick.

If I then set the 1st part in the combi to OFF instead of EXT2 and only have the 2nd part with EXT2 on midi ch 4, there is no longer any Midi latency when doing modulation of the Integra sound with the Kronos joystick.

KingKronos · Post by **KingKronos** » Sat Feb 06, 2021 5:06 pm

I set up a combi using your steps above. I chose two different synth leads in the Integra to be controlled by the two EXT2 timbres. I could not produce any modulation latency, everything worked as expected.

I muted one timbre. I tried changing the Kronos mute mode behavior from studio to live. I enabled sysex. No latency.

So I went to the Integra. I tried phase lock on and off for channels 4 and 14. Sysex receive on and off. System Control SRC1 on CC01 and not on CC01. No latency.

Now I did notice some odd envelope retriggering behavior with the synth leads while soloing. But I think this was due to my playing being interpreted by the Integra to try to create articulation slurs. But there was no modulation latency.

KingKronos · Post by **KingKronos** » Sat Feb 06, 2021 5:16 pm

And like geoelectro suggested, I was monitoring the MIDI data as I played. The Kronos was transmitting on the joystick Y+ modulation data on channels 1, 4, and 14, as expected.

I also went back and tried changing the MIDI clock sync settings, still no latency. Don't know what's causing your latency.

V-man · Post by **V-man** » Sat Feb 06, 2021 5:40 pm

KingKronos wrote:I set up a combi using your steps above. I chose two different synth leads in the Integra to be controlled by the two EXT2 timbres. I could not produce any modulation latency, everything worked as expected.

I muted one timbre. I tried changing the Kronos mute mode behavior from studio to live. I enabled sysex. No latency.

So I went to the Integra. I tried phase lock on and off for channels 4 and 14. Sysex receive on and off. System Control SRC1 on CC01 and not on CC01. No latency.

Now I did notice some odd envelope retriggering behavior with the synth leads while soloing. But I think this was due to my playing being interpreted by the Integra to try to create articulation slurs. But there was no modulation latency.

Strange, but there is one difference in your set up. I use part 1 only for program change. Part 2 is to play the Integra sound on channel 4. So part 1 does not do anything else but send the PC message when I select the combi. When this is done it's only Part 2 that is in operation so to speak. Here I get severe latency. If I for example play three notes konstantly up and down in a constant tempo and move the joystick on the kronos up and back, up and back a few times, the notes start to judder and lag and when I stop playing some notes still continue play for a few seconds.

But If I switch part 1 from EXT2 to OFF, then the latency and juddering is gone.

KingKronos · Post by **KingKronos** » Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:03 pm

I managed to produce some latency by using KARMA to play channel 4. It arps normally, until I repeatedly press the joystick up and down a few times. Then it lags in the arp sequence for a few notes, then goes back to normal.

Looking more into it, as I'm curious what is causing it.

KingKronos · Post by **KingKronos** » Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:49 pm

Well, it looks like it's a simple case of the Integra not being able to handle too much MIDI at once.

For example, if the Kronos is set to global channel 4, and you play the Integra from program mode, there is no latency. But as soon as you try to play in combi mode, there is latency. The MIDI monitor also shows that there is more data coming out of the Kronos when it is in combi mode.

And it does not matter if you change the MIDI filters on either Kronos or Integra. In KARMA, I filtered out all the transmit data I could (pan, wavesequence, MIDI envelope). In the Integra I also went to the MIDI filter page and deselected everything on channels 1, 14, and 16. On channel 4, everything but pitchbend and mod / joystick were deselected. No matter, there still is latency using js, but not pb.

Further, if you operate any of the Kronos realtime controller knobs 5 6 7 8 you also get the latency. Interestingly, you can operate knobs 1 and 2 and control filter cutoff and resonance live without causing latency.

V-man · Post by **V-man** » Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:06 pm

KingKronos wrote:Well, it looks like it's a simple case of the Integra not being able to handle too much MIDI at once.

For example, if the Kronos is set to global channel 4, and you play the Integra from program mode, there is no latency. But as soon as you try to play in combi mode, there is latency. The MIDI monitor also shows that there is more data coming out of the Kronos when it is in combi mode.

And it does not matter if you change the MIDI filters on either Kronos or Integra. In KARMA, I filtered out all the transmit data I could (pan, wavesequence, MIDI envelope). In the Integra I also went to the MIDI filter page and deselected everything on channels 1, 14, and 16. On channel 4, everything but pitchbend and mod / joystick were deselected. No matter, there still is latency using js, but not pb.

Further, if you operate any of the Kronos realtime controller knobs 5 6 7 8 you also get the latency. Interestingly, you can operate knobs 1 and 2 and control filter cutoff and resonance live without causing latency.

Your findings made me come up with an idea.

Now I've tried with the exact same set up with two parts on EXT2 as i described above, but this time I disabled the "Enable JS+Y" and "Enable JS-Y" midi filters in the combi MIDI Filter/Zones tab on Part 1, the part that is only used for the program change message. So now only part 2, that plays the Integra on midi channel 4, sends modulation from the Kronos joystick, and now the latency issue is gone!!

As you said the Integra seem not to like to much simultaneous Midi input. It apparently can't handle that there is incoming modulation messages on two different midi channels at the same time, which was the case before I disabled the joystick Y+/- in the midi filter setting on part 1 that sends on channel 14.

KingKronos · Post by **KingKronos** » Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:54 pm

Ah, I should have thought of that! Glad you found a solution. Now we all know how to solve this in the future. Well done.

V-man · Post by **V-man** » Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:09 pm

KingKronos wrote:Ah, I should have thought of that! Glad you found a solution. Now we all know how to solve this in the future. Well done.

Thank's. It's really great though to be able to discuss these kind of "obscure" behaviors in a forum like this. It makes you think in new directions.

jreece · Post by **jreece** » Thu Oct 31, 2024 2:23 pm

Hi, I noticed your post about midi problems 3 years ago from the Kronos 2-61. I have a Kronos 2 88 as my main keyboard and play a lot of the solo parts using a 2nd keyboard, currently Kurzweil K2661. This also gives me a string pad which I use alongside the Kronos pianos to keep polyphony under control on the Kronos 88. Playing the Kronos organs, I switch the rotary on and off using one of the switches on the Kurzweil next to the modulation and pitch bend wheel.

I also own a Kronos 2 - 61 which I currently use for some smaller gigs and decided to try making that my second slave keyboard to allow a further enhancement with additional polyphony and different sound expansion options loaded into each keyboard.

I have set it up to behave like the Kurzweil initially, except on the Kronos, the rotary for the organ is triggered from the modulation upwards movement of the pitch bend joystick. If I try and push this joystick up whilst playing notes on the organ to switch the rotary on, the midi notes stutter, hang and miss ( the organ program sound is being played by the master Kronos 88 within a combination)

I have removed one midi cable so only the Kronos 2-61 Midi out is in use and Midi in only on the Kronos 2-88. Like your post I have tried disabling all the X Y control sends etc on both the EXT 2 part and the same on the receiving Kronos 2-88 part, but it still hangs when moving the joystick up. Sys exc disabled etc as well. I have also tried all the different midi clock settings and switching various functions on and off.

Playing an internal organ program within a combination directly on the Kronos 2-61 causes no problem at all, the same on the Kronos 2-88 standalone and equally when the part is remotely driven from my current Kurzweill causes it no problem.

Any Ideas? Thank you