Kronos engines cover all the bases - wanna bet?

[ITguy54]

Every once in a while I see a post that asks what could Korg possibly add to what the Kronos already does. It covers all the bases of synthesis, they say. Here’s why that’s not true. For all you people with an attention span that can deal with a 20 minute video, here is what Korg could add, if they come out with a Kronos 3. Especially around 7:30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCujIf5eJ2w

[ronnfigg]

Good point. Also the most obvious- no true analog in the Kronos.

[KingKronos]

I watched that video a few days ago and was really impressed with all the types of synthesis. Resynthesis is also a feature the Synclavier had. The TC Helicon Perform VE and I think maybe the Roland V-synth can do something similar.

I find it surprising that anyone would claim that the Kronos can cover *all* bases.

There is a lot you can do with additive synthesis. I made a couple combis with additive partials... up to to 64 is possible, but 12 or 18 is good enough without getting to wieldy like the Kawai additive synths. On the Kronos you can grab a group of sliders and instantly shape the partials.

But before anyone wades too deep into the pond of "grass is always greener" or "I want a new synth engine", I suggest there's a lot that most have yet to explore within the Kronos.

The MOD7 engine is really 4-5 synth engine types. The STR1 covers 2 to 3 types. The wavesequencer can do another 3 to 4 types. People be eating at a buffet, but then see a tv commercial for some exotic seafood, and then complain about the buffet not having enough seafood. Oi.

[KingKronos]

Good point. Also the most obvious- no true analog in the Kronos.

This is true. But... you can use the multiple aux outs into outboard external filters, and bam, Kronos hybrid!

Plenty of options for monophonic filters, esp nowadays with the resurgence of so many semi-modular monosynths. Of course, that would only make the Kronos a paraphonic analog. But that's the same as the Roland Fantoms... one analog filter to run all voices through.

For true polyphonic analogs, and with presets, you want to run through analogs synths that have presets and an external in:

Minitaur
Slim Phatty
DSI Pro 2 or 3
Evolver or Mopho
Elektron Analog 4

Kronos can have 6 different outs, so it can be at most a 6-voice polyphonic hybrid. It case it isn't obvious, this is what I'm in the middle of experimenting with...

[kronoSphere]

Very complexe but an absolutely astonishing VST musical monster to understand a little more all type of synthesis : Cyclin' 74

[ronnfigg]

Good point. Also the most obvious- no true analog in the Kronos.

This is true. But... you can use the multiple aux outs into outboard external filters, and bam, Kronos hybrid!

Plenty of options for monophonic filters, esp nowadays with the resurgence of so many semi-modular monosynths. Of course, that would only make the Kronos a paraphonic analog. But that's the same as the Roland Fantoms... one analog filter to run all voices through.

For true polyphonic analogs, and with presets, you want to run through analogs synths that have presets and an external in:

Minitaur
Slim Phatty
DSI Pro 2 or 3
Evolver or Mopho
Elektron Analog 4

Kronos can have 6 different outs, so it can be at most a 6-voice polyphonic hybrid. It case it isn't obvious, this is what I'm in the middle of experimenting with...

I am talking about analog oscillators.

[geoelectro]

So what do analog oscillators sound like? A square wave is a square wave no matter how it's made. Are you talking about the tuning drift due to non precise analog circuits? A digital oscillator can have tuning anomalies built into it by software.

I'm just curious when I hear someone touting analog oscillators over digital, am I missing something?

Of course analog filters have a huge difference compared to digital filters but oscillators?

Geo

[Musicwithharry]

I am not sure that many people would really care if the Kronos has a 'real' analog section or not. I wonder how many complaining about the Kronos not having analog were alive when analog was king...

VA, when done right, is nearly indistinguishable from analog.

The Kronos is a 'do it all' workstation. I believe that the meaning behind that it that is offers music production, midi sequencing, audio recording, mastering, all in one package. It has many different sound engines as well.

How many of us are running analog, but are not TRULY analog because we are running digital EFX with our analog synths? I know that I am in that camp. I pretty heavily rely on the EFX engines in order to help shape my sounds, no matter if they're digital OR analog.

I rather like the idea of putting an analog filter(s) on the additional outputs of the Kronos. It would make a DCO hybrid synth with a lot of possibilities. I hope that experiment goes well

I recommend that we worry about mastering our instruments and making music instead of arguing over minutiae.

Grace,
Harry

[KingKronos]

I've spent a good deal of time trying to emulate "analog" sound with my K. I've got a few analog polys and monos, and there definitely is a difference between purely digital osc's vs the VCOs and the DCOs. Even my digital synths have different degrees of how "analog" they can sound.

For example, my Stage 2 synth section is much more raw and analog-like than the Kronos... at first. Even the little Blofeld has a certain richness... again, at first. But.... after tweaking the usual suspects in the K (detune, EQ, drive, distortion, exciters, poly unison, random phase, env curves, noice, random LFOs on envelopes, tube modelers in preamps and mic and amp FX, etc)... the Kronos eventually outshines the others and gets pretty convincingly analog.

Or let's look at a simpler comparison. Do we really think the Kronos MS20ex sounds as punchy and present as an actual Korg MS20 or any of its clones? The Kronos version is more polite, hifi, and airy. If you want some beef, you're gonna have to use some spicy ingredients to get it closer to the real thing.

So Ronnfig does have a point. Most (not all) analog oscillators are more "alive" than the Kronos digital osc's. Running a Minilogue XD init saw patch thru the K and monitoring on a spectrogram and oscilloscope confirms what your ears hear. An INIT saw on the K is very static and sterile compared to the animated XD saw. But the K has toolz, and after using them as listed above, you can get much closer to that elusive analog sound.

[KingKronos]

But geoelectro also has a valid point. Analog filters make a big difference in sound compared to digital filters. How much is up for debate, especially with modern softsynths getting better. The better ones probably get 90-95% analog quality. But since the Kronos tech is more than a decade old, I'd say its filters only get 75-85% there. Of course that's "good enough" according to the 80/20 rule... and of course good enough for all the pro's and semi-pro's and dedicated amateurs like ourselves.

I've explored the Kronos filters to death, and gotten some good mileage out of dual serial and parallel, out of the multifilter, and drive and low boost. In the MOD7 engine I've even patched in filters back into themselves (filter feedback) and through waveshapers before and after the filters. The MS20 filters have a lot of character. Since the AL1, MOD7, MS20, and STR1 synths all have audio input, you can put them in a combi and run the output of any timbre to the AUX outs and back into any of the timbres that have audio input. So you can FM a wavesequence by running it into MOD7, then piping that out into the MS20 to get some squelch!

But even after all that fun Reaktor style patching, there is a certain ceiling in the sound. I'd say the Kronos tops out around 85-90% if you use every trick available. But doing something as simple as running the K through an Evolver's Curtis filters adds something that is hard to emulate to otherwise. It suddenly sounds much more analog... well, it is actually all analog at that point!

For those like me who are after the sonic ear candy of analogs, but also want the variety of digital poly and presets, then slapping programmable analog filters across the Kronos AUX outs is the quickest and easiest way there to that certain "something".

[geoelectro]

I’ve owned and played Mini Moogs, ARP Odessey’s, ARP 2600’s, Oberheim OB-8, Xpanders, and even they all sound different.

I currently have a Synthesizers.com Modular. I wanted to see if Omnisphere could do a fair emulation with its analog modeling. I tried all the filters and it just couldn’t get there. Then, I tried it on the Kronos using the PolySix engine. Way better... I was taken aback. I love Omnisphere but it couldn’t do pure analog as well as I thought it should. I was very surprised that the Kronos did such a better job.

I have sampled some Modular into the K and it sounds great. Interestingly, adding too much FX seems to take away from the initial rawness. Like adding Pitch Shift Mod which I love to add on many sounds, really messes up the modular samples. Or I should say takes away from the original sound and makes it more.......digital.

I had the OP-8 software and it added some randomness to the voices by making each voice a separate engine. It did a very good job and had good sounding filters. Still, analog filters are the trick just like a real Leslie is to a Hammond organ.

Geo

[KingKronos]

I’ve owned and played Mini Moogs, ARP Odessey’s, ARP 2600’s, Oberheim OB-8, Xpanders, and even they all sound different.

Was always curious about the Xpander sound. Or maybe I was thinking about the Matrix12, the one with 15 filter types. Of course it's more than just filters that make the synths sound different. Main things that come to my mind are oscillators (triangle or saw core?) and envelopes.

I currently have a Synthesizers.com Modular. I wanted to see if Omnisphere could do a fair emulation with its analog modeling. I tried all the filters and it just couldn’t get there. Then, I tried it on the Kronos using the PolySix engine. Way better... I was taken aback. I love Omnisphere but it couldn’t do pure analog as well as I thought it should. I was very surprised that the Kronos did such a better job.

If I'm not mistaken, the Poly6 and the MS20 are different from AL1 in one major way -- they're both built from bottom emulation of the actual analog circuitry. The Poly6 had the beautiful sounding SSM2044 filter.

I have sampled some Modular into the K and it sounds great. Interestingly, adding too much FX seems to take away from the initial rawness. Like adding Pitch Shift Mod which I love to add on many sounds, really messes up the modular samples. Or I should say takes away from the original sound and makes it more.......digital.

I've found Pitch Mods can be digital cheesy on many boxes, and more prominently artificial on familiar natural tones like voice and acoustic samples. I prefer to use exciters (K has several useful presets there). Also, try out the Bi-Phaser on the 140 Gentle preset. It splits the incoming signal and applies a 140 degree phase shift on each, really spacious and warming at the same time.

I've noticed from watching modular videos (once I can get past all the bleeps and bloops), that all the different analog generated sounds seem to share a similar character. They do have some sweet high end, but generally are not "bright" like digital can be. There's a rubbery mid-band presence that's a bit elusive to replicate with only EQ. Maybe it's because the signal levels are so hot that there's some subtle compression going on? They're definitely not single cycle waves since even a half second blip has a lot of change happening.

I had the OP-8 software and it added some randomness to the voices by making each voice a separate engine. It did a very good job and had good sounding filters. Still, analog filters are the trick just like a real Leslie is to a Hammond organ.

Ah, the OP-x software, that did sound lively for an early gen soft synth. Great idea to make each voice its own engine. Goes to show how independent pitch variations, slightly lagging envelopes like on the original, and subtly different filter env responses per voice can altogether bring life to the whole thing. Kinda like have 5 singers separately mic'd versus one vocal track copy / pasted and detuned.

Have you heard of Creative Spiral and his work on the Rev2? He calls his technique Voice Component Modeling. It uses a similar independent approach to each voice, by slightly offsetting or randomizing per voice pitch, env attack and decay time, and filter env or filter cutoff amount. The new "vintage mode" on the DSI Prophet 5 took its cue from this, and they even back-ported it to their Prophet 6 and OB6.

You can emulate the technique on the Kronos easily. Set LFO4 to one of the Random waves, and turn off Key Sync so that LFO is free-running instead of triggered at the same point every note-on. Then turn on the Stop checkbox to the left of the LFO graphic. Now you have a single random value that changes with each new note-on, and independently per voice. You're then free to use LFO4 all over the place to get that natural analog variation -- on osc pitch amount, separately on the attack and decay times, on the Filter Mod EG Int (in the Intensity box to far right).

[KingKronos]

Every once in a while I see a post that asks what could Korg possibly add to what the Kronos already does. It covers all the bases of synthesis, they say. Here’s why that’s not true. For all you people with an attention span that can deal with a 20 minute video, here is what Korg could add, if they come out with a Kronos 3. Especially around 7:30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCujIf5eJ2w

Sorry for a bit of the thread hijack, here's something to bring things back around to your OP.

If you wish you could manipulate your samples similar to the example in the video, there is a way to do something similar in the Kronos. It's called Pitch Stretch. Of course it's only available for sounds that use samples, so you'll only see the parameter available if you're on an HD1 sound.

Control surface, tone adjust, pick a knob or slider dropdown arrow, and in the 3rd column you'll find Pitch Stretch.

Personally I'm expecting if a Kronos 3 to be released, they'll simply re-use the piecemeal advancements they made in the Wavestate, Opsix, and Modwave. That might get us better workflows for wavesequencing and FM, along with a few other tricks. Would be nice to have the filter optiosn they have, like MS20 and Poly6, but they ought to grab all the filter types found in the KingKorg while they're at it.

And the best parts of the sequencer workflow from the Electribes. And more piano samples... more pianos is always good.

[Bachus]

Good point. Also the most obvious- no true analog in the Kronos.

For a digital synth i would say, most obvious missing thing is wavetables, wavetables are becomming more and more popular...

[KingKronos]

Good point. Also the most obvious- no true analog in the Kronos.

For a digital synth i would say, most obvious missing thing is wavetables, wavetables are becomming more and more popular...

Would you consider the Waldorf Microwaves and Blofeld wavetable synths? What about the Prophet VS?

The Kronos has plenty of single cycle waves, including all the VS waves. Pop them into the wavesequencer and you have a wavetable synth like the old classics.