Karma Drums

[rafael.friesen]

I´m using my K1 mostly with Karma Drums on the songs I play live.
On each Karma scene I program a pattern for each part of the music (Verse, Chorus, Bridge etc). Unfortunately I´m not discovering a way to create good drum fills (I´m using the K for just a couple of months), and could not find out the way to create custom Karma Drum Modules (I need some brazilian drums...). For drum fills I´m using the variations on each GE, but this is not sounding nice for me.
I have not found tutorials that could help me with this
So, I´m asking if someone could give some tips on: 1- how to make some better drum fills; 2- how to create custom drum karma modules.

[KingKronos]

Hi rafael, welcome to the forum. Congratulations on using KARMA scenes to make variations. To create custom drum modules with KARMA, you have limited options using the Kronos alone. Purchasing the KARMA software will give you access to more KARMA parameters, and let you directly create patterns and save them on to your Kronos to use independently from the computer. Here's a link to the KARMA forums, where you can find detailed information.

Be aware that KARMA may or may not be a suitable or worthwhile solution for custom drum fills.

Since you dived into the deep end successfully using KARMA for variations, and yet you are new to your Kronos, I am not sure how much of a foundation you have with the Kronos architecture, specifically regarding drums and drumkits and patterns. I was going to start this post by laying the foundations first, but quickly realized I would be writing a book. So here are some tips from the opposite end of the spectrum -- I will give you high-level suggestions, and leave it up to you to ask for clarifications if needed.

1. How to make better drum fills (outside of KARMA)? From the Drum Track page found in program and combi and sequencer mode:

The Preset drum patterns are grouped by groove, and you can change the pattern while the drums are playing. If you change in the middle of the 8 or 16 bar phrase it is currently playing, it will instantly play the new pattern from the middle of the phrase. So, if you switch back to the old pattern before the new pattern reaches bar 1, you can "steal" that part of the new pattern to use as a drum fill.

Use Shift to move the whole kit over by a few MIDI notes. The MIDI pattern will continue playing, but instead it will trigger different notes. This can be used as an alternate groove entirely. Or, like above, you can Shift back to revert to the normal drum kit, and just steal a few bars to use as a fill.

For both of these methods you will need to do it live. There is no MIDI cc for these. (But if you're playing in sequencer mode, you can record your manual changing of the shift or drum pattern. This will be recorded as sysex, which you can use in an RPPR pattern. Closest thing Kronos has to macros).

Ok, this post is already too long. Here are my other tips in a few words.
Go to sequencer mode, create some User patterns, convert these to Drum Track Patterns. Go back to the Drum Track page I mentioned above. Instead of Preset Drum patterns, select your User Drum patterns. see Julius DeBerry youtube tutorials on Drum Tracks. Also Jurgen Kohler. And Stephen Kary / Karma-labs video on KARMA drum fills.

If you're already performing live in sequencer mode, use RPPR for custom made drum fills. Either actual drum fills, or as mentioned above, as a macro.

Split your drum kit over a couple timbres. Mute the main one occasionally when you want to do a fill. Enjoy the silence, or manually play a fill before switching the main drum groove back on.

Sample a drum fill from outside the Kronos. Make that into a program (in Sampler mode, convert MS to a program).

Or, play a drum fill yourself, or via KARMA, and record live (sample) what you are doing (far right of Kronos -- Sampling Rec and start/stop buttons).

From within KARMA on the Kronos (less precise results, more random):
Go to GE RTP Scenes page. There are total of 32 parameters you can mess with (top buttons 1-16 and 17-32). Experiment with KARMA parameters beginning with Drum, Rhythm, Index, and Note series while the groove is playing. You can Assign ones you like to KARMA sliders and switches (maybe after first un-assigning a paramater you don't need).

Ok, that's it. Time for a caffeine refill. Good luck!

[fomalhaut]

See also this video for some interesting variations using a pedal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly_lqnkwMgc

[StephenKay]

Some great tips and ideas, KingKronos!

Also check out these videos on creating Drum fills with a GE. These were done on the OASYS, but the basic ideas work on the M3/Kronos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Cy1Ifj ... O&index=10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbj1CWy ... O&index=11

[KingKronos]

Some great tips and ideas, KingKronos!

Also check out these videos on creating Drum fills with a GE. These were done on the OASYS, but the basic ideas work on the M3/Kronos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Cy1Ifj ... O&index=10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbj1CWy ... O&index=11

Thanks, Stephen, those videos are exactly what I was thinking of, hopefully Rafael finds them useful.

I was meaning to ask you about KARMA drums. I find it rewarding to learn more and more how KARMA works.

A couple months ago I made great headway dissecting how various drum parameters worked. I had this notion that I might be able to make a type of mini-drum machine using KARMA. Like Rafael, I used scenes for chorus, verse, etc. But I wanted to be able to more directly control how each individual drum played, so that I could create my own rhythm combinations on the fly.

Here's how I re-labeled the sliders (and the actual RTP):

1 Kick/Snare level (Drum pattern velocity offset [1])
2 Pattern Select[1] (Index template restore[1])

3 HiHats level (Drum pattern velocity offset [2])
4 Pattern Select[2] (Index template restore[1])

5 Toms/Fill level

6 Swing %
7 Fill (Repeat repetitions)
8 Improvisation (Cluster Pools random factor)

So this allows *almost* individual control of the drums. Toms are good, hihats almost, but very quiet. I'm good with the kick and snare pattern being on the same slider. But unfortunately the hihat is also rolled up into this slider... I wish the hihats could be separate. Is there some RTP I'm overlooking?

Also, it's super hard to get just a simple beat. I like the non-simple kick and snare patterns, of course, but they don't always groove, which often needs simpler ingredients first. I can't dial in a basic 4 on the floor for the kick, with or without a snare. And forget trying to do straight 8th hihats, or the classic x-tsh x-tsh x-tsh HH upbeat. Any tips on how to achieve simpler rhythms? Maybe I'm looking at the wrong GE or even GE type?

Anyway, it's probably the way the algorithms are coded. I don't yet use a computer with my Kronos, so was hoping there was some way to do this without the software. But even with the software, would it be possible to create this live interactive drum machine with more accessible beats?

Thanks.

[rafael.friesen]

From within KARMA on the Kronos (less precise results, more random):
Go to GE RTP Scenes page. There are total of 32 parameters you can mess with (top buttons 1-16 and 17-32). Experiment with KARMA parameters beginning with Drum, Rhythm, Index, and Note series while the groove is playing. You can Assign ones you like to KARMA sliders and switches (maybe after first un-assigning a paramater you don't need).

Thanks for all the answers. I had already watched all the vdeos sugested on all replys before my post, but none answered my questions.
Seems the only option I have is to patiently mess with the parameters until I find something I like (and that is a problem, considering all stuff I have to do in my life...). Fortunately there are a few GE´s that sound like drum fills, and for now that is what I´m using.

Karma is one of the main reasons I´ve bought this instrument, but it seems that I´ve found the first thing I don´t like in the K1: it´s not possible to create custom GE´s (is it possible on K2?). That´s a problem for me, because I need some brazilian rythm, and using Drum Tracks would solve only part of the problem, because I need at least 2 or 3 drum patterns on each song (I play mostly on the church, and we don´t have a drummer...). Unfortunately a brazilian guy like me can not afford Karma-Lab software (for now... at least until I finish my doctor´s degree...). Well... patience....

Thanks.

[gchance]

Hi guys,
I just bought a K1 last week (it arrived on Friday), and this is one of the things I've envisioned doing, with generating drums for church while playing. A bit of background: previously I used an Arturia Keylab 88 at church along with Reason, which a little while ago released a Drum Pattern player. I programmed it with my Launchpad Mini so I could trigger drum loops with 8 buttons in a row per song. The first button would start the drum, defaulting to a kick, with patterns along the rest of the buttons in that row. I had fill patterns there as well and would basically play with my right hand and switch patterns with my left. Since it would play until I pressed stop, I could easily just reach up and change patterns as I was playing songs.

If KARMA can do this, it's just about perfect for when we don't have a drummer. Thanks for the discussion guys, I learned a lot just in these few posts and videos.

[GregC]

[qu. But I wanted to be able to more directly control how each individual drum played, so that I could create my own rhythm combinations on the fly.


So this allows *almost* individual control of the drums. Toms are good, hihats almost, but very quiet. I'm good with the kick and snare pattern being on the same slider. But unfortunately the hihat is also rolled up into this slider... I wish the hihats could be separate. nks.

I am very pleased with Karma drums.

one additional technique is to split/assign the kit sounds [ bass/kick drum, cymbals, toms , snared ] into individual drum programs, using keyboard note/spilt mapping while in SEQ mode.

the same approach should work in Combi mode, I prefer SEQ since it gives me excellent control.

Plus I add/subtract certain FX to each drum kit component. Snares and cymbals get realistic improvement using the above

[kronosflyby]

I´m using my K1 mostly with Karma Drums on the songs I play live.

I'm not a spécialist but it seems to me that it is almost impossible without creating spécifics drum patterns triggered at a time.

I think I will try to do that in the future version 2 of my program starting with drum fills / breaks from addictive drums style software or other ....

Anyway, this is a problem that I have been facing for quite a while now.

[hephiroth]

If you are primarily switching between scenes for your different song parts, then I think you should really consider recording those scenes as patterns for use in RPPR, and then add in a few other custom patterns for the fills. You’ll have to remember which notes do what (maybe the main drum patterns are endless loops but the fills are single triggers?), but you could put some notes in via a Set List. This would let you capture the grooves you’ve created with KARMA but also the flexibility of customization.

[apex]

Hi rafael, welcome to the forum. Congratulations on using KARMA scenes to make variations. To create custom drum modules with KARMA, you have limited options using the Kronos alone. Purchasing the KARMA software will give you access to more KARMA parameters, and let you directly create patterns and save them on to your Kronos to use independently from the computer. Here's a link to the KARMA forums, where you can find detailed information.

Be aware that KARMA may or may not be a suitable or worthwhile solution for custom drum fills.

Since you dived into the deep end successfully using KARMA for variations, and yet you are new to your Kronos, I am not sure how much of a foundation you have with the Kronos architecture, specifically regarding drums and drumkits and patterns. I was going to start this post by laying the foundations first, but quickly realized I would be writing a book. So here are some tips from the opposite end of the spectrum -- I will give you high-level suggestions, and leave it up to you to ask for clarifications if needed.

1. How to make better drum fills (outside of KARMA)? From the Drum Track page found in program and combi and sequencer mode:

The Preset drum patterns are grouped by groove, and you can change the pattern while the drums are playing. If you change in the middle of the 8 or 16 bar phrase it is currently playing, it will instantly play the new pattern from the middle of the phrase. So, if you switch back to the old pattern before the new pattern reaches bar 1, you can "steal" that part of the new pattern to use as a drum fill.

Use Shift to move the whole kit over by a few MIDI notes. The MIDI pattern will continue playing, but instead it will trigger different notes. This can be used as an alternate groove entirely. Or, like above, you can Shift back to revert to the normal drum kit, and just steal a few bars to use as a fill.

For both of these methods you will need to do it live. There is no MIDI cc for these. (But if you're playing in sequencer mode, you can record your manual changing of the shift or drum pattern. This will be recorded as sysex, which you can use in an RPPR pattern. Closest thing Kronos has to macros).

Ok, this post is already too long. Here are my other tips in a few words.
Go to sequencer mode, create some User patterns, convert these to Drum Track Patterns. Go back to the Drum Track page I mentioned above. Instead of Preset Drum patterns, select your User Drum patterns. see Julius DeBerry youtube tutorials on Drum Tracks. Also Jurgen Kohler. And Stephen Kary / Karma-labs video on KARMA drum fills.

If you're already performing live in sequencer mode, use RPPR for custom made drum fills. Either actual drum fills, or as mentioned above, as a macro.

Split your drum kit over a couple timbres. Mute the main one occasionally when you want to do a fill. Enjoy the silence, or manually play a fill before switching the main drum groove back on.

Sample a drum fill from outside the Kronos. Make that into a program (in Sampler mode, convert MS to a program).

Or, play a drum fill yourself, or via KARMA, and record live (sample) what you are doing (far right of Kronos -- Sampling Rec and start/stop buttons).

From within KARMA on the Kronos (less precise results, more random):
Go to GE RTP Scenes page. There are total of 32 parameters you can mess with (top buttons 1-16 and 17-32). Experiment with KARMA parameters beginning with Drum, Rhythm, Index, and Note series while the groove is playing. You can Assign ones you like to KARMA sliders and switches (maybe after first un-assigning a paramater you don't need).

Ok, that's it. Time for a caffeine refill. Good luck!

Thanks for sharing

[apex]

Hi rafael, welcome to the forum. Congratulations on using KARMA scenes to make variations. To create custom drum modules with KARMA, you have limited options using the Kronos alone. Purchasing the KARMA software will give you access to more KARMA parameters, and let you directly create patterns and save them on to your Kronos to use independently from the computer. Here's a link to the KARMA forums, where you can find detailed information.

Be aware that KARMA may or may not be a suitable or worthwhile solution for custom drum fills.

Since you dived into the deep end successfully using KARMA for variations, and yet you are new to your Kronos, I am not sure how much of a foundation you have with the Kronos architecture, specifically regarding drums and drumkits and patterns. I was going to start this post by laying the foundations first, but quickly realized I would be writing a book. So here are some tips from the opposite end of the spectrum -- I will give you high-level suggestions, and leave it up to you to ask for clarifications if needed.

1. How to make better drum fills (outside of KARMA)? From the Drum Track page found in program and combi and sequencer mode:

The Preset drum patterns are grouped by groove, and you can change the pattern while the drums are playing. If you change in the middle of the 8 or 16 bar phrase it is currently playing, it will instantly play the new pattern from the middle of the phrase. So, if you switch back to the old pattern before the new pattern reaches bar 1, you can "steal" that part of the new pattern to use as a drum fill.

Use Shift to move the whole kit over by a few MIDI notes. The MIDI pattern will continue playing, but instead it will trigger different notes. This can be used as an alternate groove entirely. Or, like above, you can Shift back to revert to the normal drum kit, and just steal a few bars to use as a fill.

For both of these methods you will need to do it live. There is no MIDI cc for these. (But if you're playing in sequencer mode, you can record your manual changing of the shift or drum pattern. This will be recorded as sysex, which you can use in an RPPR pattern. Closest thing Kronos has to macros).

Ok, this post is already too long. Here are my other tips in a few words.
Go to sequencer mode, create some User patterns, convert these to Drum Track Patterns. Go back to the Drum Track page I mentioned above. Instead of Preset Drum patterns, select your User Drum patterns. see Julius DeBerry youtube tutorials on Drum Tracks. Also Jurgen Kohler. And Stephen Kary / Karma-labs video on KARMA drum fills.

If you're already performing live in sequencer mode, use RPPR for custom made drum fills. Either actual drum fills, or as mentioned above, as a macro.

Split your drum kit over a couple timbres. Mute the main one occasionally when you want to do a fill. Enjoy the silence, or manually play a fill before switching the main drum groove back on.

Sample a drum fill from outside the Kronos. Make that into a program (in Sampler mode, convert MS to a program).

Or, play a drum fill yourself, or via KARMA, and record live (sample) what you are doing (far right of Kronos -- Sampling Rec and start/stop buttons).

From within KARMA on the Kronos (less precise results, more random):
Go to GE RTP Scenes page. There are total of 32 parameters you can mess with (top buttons 1-16 and 17-32). Experiment with KARMA parameters beginning with Drum, Rhythm, Index, and Note series while the groove is playing. You can Assign ones you like to KARMA sliders and switches (maybe after first un-assigning a paramater you don't need).

Ok, that's it. Time for a caffeine refill. Good luck!

Thanks for sharing