Flagship upgrades

[ChrisDuncan]

I ended up getting the Montage M8x, so at this point I have all three flagships. Having just gone 'round the block with Fantom on their EX upgrade, it highlighted the different approach the big three synth makers have taken.

Yamaha updated the Montage to the Montage M. New hardware and a significant upgrade in features and quality. Selling a Montage to buy an M might be a worthwhile experience.

Roland apparently didn't want to commit to new hardware, so they released a firmware update to make it a Fantom EX. There's now a new Fantom EX being sold by retailers. However, the only hardware difference is the EX logo. It's the same old hardware, just with the OS updated. Nonetheless, this appears to be their competitor to the Montage M, but no need to sell my Fantom for the upgrade.

And then there's Korg. However, instead of offering new and improved hardware and signficant new features over the Kronos, like Yamaha did with the M, they went the opposite direction. They released the Nautilus, which was a downgrade (poly aftertouch notwithstanding) and basically serves as the direct competitor to the ModX, i.e. "flagship lite." And I think for that line of keyboards it's probably a great instrument. An upgrade from the Kronos, however, it is not.

I bought the M, and I bought the Fantom, but I didn't buy the Nautilus. I don't care that much about poly aftertouch and I already have a Kronos, which is essentially the big brother.

So, Roland got my money and Yamaha got my money, but all Korg had to offer me was a downgrade, so they didn't get my money.

I don't always understand what these companies are thinking.

[Mike Conway]

I ended up getting the Montage M8x, so at this point I have all three flagships.

That is a powerful trio. I really like the look of the Montage M! I wish I had one.

And then there's Korg. However, instead of offering new and improved hardware and signficant new features over the Kronos, like Yamaha did with the M, they went the opposite direction. They released the Nautilus, which was a downgrade (poly aftertouch notwithstanding) and basically serves as the direct competitor to the ModX, i.e. "flagship lite." And I think for that line of keyboards it's probably a great instrument. An upgrade from the Kronos, however, it is not.

I far prefer the physical layout of the Kronos, but in some ways, Nautilus is an upgrade. For example - 6,400 programs! (User and GM).

Kronos




Nautilus

So, Roland got my money and Yamaha got my money, but all Korg had to offer me was a downgrade, so they didn't get my money.

I don't always understand what these companies are thinking.

I think Korg was going back to the look of the M1. A very tidy look with a lot under the hood. If my house burns down and I have to start over, I'll take Nautilus over any Yamaha, Roland, or Kurzweil. There is so much more room for user/factory samples. It has all the synth engines and wavesequencing of the Kronos, and it is a true workstation, with a proper sequencer/sampler.

I love the Montage, but the sample side of it maxes out at 128 note polyphony. The processor is slow - 43 minutes to upgrade to version 2.0! The disk saving/loading/utilities seem really lame, compared to Nautilus. I would love to have the M, but that part would drive me nuts. As a second keyboard, definitely.

You lose KARMA when going from Kronos to Nautilus. The plus side of the arpeggiators, is that they are user programmable. No software needed.

I do think that Korg positioned the Nautilus to go against MODX, but only from a price perspective. As I said, I would take the N over any other flagship.

For someone like yourself, I would wait to see what Korg comes out with eventually. They've been milking the OASYS tech for the past 19 years, because no one else has fully caught up to it, yet. They haven't needed to take that next step, but the gaps are narrowing. Next year might be time.

[ChrisDuncan]

That is a powerful trio. I really like the look of the Montage M! I wish I had one.

I'm having trouble exploring the M8X fully because I keep coming back to their Hamburg Grand. The Steinway sound is what I gravitate towards, so I've been playing the German Grand on the Kronos for years and loving it. But the sound of the Steinway on the M is just holy cow good. Thunderous bottom, also brighter than the German Grand. Additionally, the velocity / dynamic range on the M makes the Kronos feel like I'm playing an organ. Add to that the keybed on the M8x, which is just a delight to play, and when I fire it up intending to explore, I end up playing piano for an hour.

The Steinway on the M is so very different to the German Grand and the Kronos 88 velocity / dynamics that I thought I would suffer from, "Oh, this isn't the new toy anymore so I really don't feel like playing it." Instead, it's like my guitars. Some days it's a Strat, some days it's a PRS, etc. just depending on the song or what I feel like playing / hearing. Every time I sit down to play the German Grand on the Kronos I still enjoy it.

I far prefer the physical layout of the Kronos, but in some ways, Nautilus is an upgrade. For example - 6,400 programs! (User and GM).

I would expect that in many ways Nautilus is faster ponies. I bought my Kronos in 2018, and that was already the second version and had been around for a while. The Nautilus gets the advantage of all the latest tech, so I imagine it's a beast. But since I already have a Kronos and I don't gig anymore, buying the Nautilus would have to a large degree been an exercise in redundancy.

I love the Montage, but the sample side of it maxes out at 128 note polyphony. The processor is slow - 43 minutes to upgrade to version 2.0!

Don't get me started on upgrades. I just upgraded the Fantom to the new EX yesterday and that was the clumsiest install I've ever seen. If you're into self inflicted pain, you can watch Ed Diaz's YouTube video. He's a Roland tech guy who seems like a genuinely good dude and makes tutorials for them. He did a great job on the video, but it was clear that even he understood how convoluted the install process was. And beyond the clumsiness, it took an hour!

I'm sure the M is faster than the original Montage, but I never had the latter so I have no point of reference. However, it boots in mere seconds (looking at you, Korg).

You lose KARMA when going from Kronos to Nautilus. The plus side of the arpeggiators, is that they are user programmable. No software needed.

I do think that Korg positioned the Nautilus to go against MODX, but only from a price perspective. As I said, I would take the N over any other flagship.

KARMA is something that I've never delved into since I haven't done a lot of sound design. But all you have to do is a little RTFM to realize how incredibly powerful it is. It's a shame they didn't maintain the relationship for the Nautilus as it seems like a major feature to lose.

The M doesn't have anything like KARMA that I can see (not sure anyone does, frankly), but they have a library of something like 16,000 arps, so that's something at least.

For someone like yourself, I would wait to see what Korg comes out with eventually. They've been milking the OASYS tech for the past 19 years, because no one else has fully caught up to it, yet. They haven't needed to take that next step, but the gaps are narrowing. Next year might be time.

Right. Because I so desperately need to spend money on yet another keyboard. I probably should have ended my post with, "Thank you, Korg, for helping my credit cards maintain their structural integrity."

I had posted a week or so ago asking about people's thoughts on the M. One of the guys had one and in relation to the Kronos his comment was, "I like night, and I like day." I now understand what he means. There's a lot to love in the M, and lot to love in the Fantom. And yet, even though they're both newer, there's still a lot to love about my Kronos. So I guess I would have to say that I like morning, noon and night.

The Kronos UI is more geeky than its modern counterparts. Dense screens packed with a ton of parameters. That can make some people's eyes glaze over, but I love the raw power being so close to the surface. Anytime I want to do something on the Kronos, there's never a question of whether it's possible or not, it's just a matter of finding the right screen.

The sounds, and particularly the sampled ones, are still my go to choices in many cases. The Fantom EX upgrade brought new pianos, and they're done nicely, but for me the modeled pianos just don't feel right after playing the German Grand for so long. The Fantom has all those bright and snappy Roland synths, which I love. But the Kronos has all those fat, warm Korg synths, which I also love.

I'm just getting started with the M, but I can already see that there's no, "this one is better than that one" for me, just a lot of great choices for whatever I need at the moment.

As for direction, since all three have released some kind of workstation in the last year or so, I figure it's one of two things with Korg. Either they're not seeing a market for a full on flagship upgrade from the Kronos, or they've already done everything that can be done, so why bother? Even the M and EX were incremental. The only buzzword from workstations this time around has been poly aftertouch. Beyond that it's mostly been just faster ponies and different sound sets.

So maybe Korg is on the right track. Other than putting it in a newer package with faster hardware and touching up the UI, which they've done with Nautilus, what other major features are left? If they released a Kronos 3 next year that was faster ponies and a little UI polish, I don't know that it would be worth selling my Kronos and upgrading. It's still a monster keyboard.

[Mike Conway]

Right. Because I so desperately need to spend money on yet another keyboard. I probably should have ended my post with, "Thank you, Korg, for helping my credit cards maintain their structural integrity."

Honestly, you are all set. You have 3 kick-ass flagships! That is such a playground that you will never exhaust.

A lot of other people are pushing for that new model and 64 bit computer compatibility. I can think of a lot things that can be added; mainly more RAM, polyphony (yes, fast boot up!), filter types, and organization. But, I'm happy with the current work flow and huge sound library market. I have a lot invested in the sound libraries, ever since I payed $400 a pop for those early KARO/KApro and other libraries, years ago.

I've been actually buying a lot of experimental toys, so I'm in my own playground! I like mixing things up.



Kronos is still the centerpiece of my projects though. Nautilus is there to help with my libraries, as well as be a backup, going into the future.

The Kronos UI is more geeky than its modern counterparts. Dense screens packed with a ton of parameters.

Those are the same screens that are on the OASYS. That interface was made for a 10.4" tilt screen. It's a joy to use the OASYS, which also has LEDs on all the sliders and knobs. But, each new model that comes out has a smaller screen. If you compare the price difference, I guess it's not so much to complain about.

[ChrisDuncan]

Those are some fun looking toys! Not surprising, of course, given your history of sound design.

I just looked up the price of the Oasys new. Yikes. Yeah, I'll just take my smaller screen Kronos and be happy. I didn't realize the screen got smaller on the Nautilus, but I know they did some touch up on the UI, so I'm sure it's still readable. Pretty cool that you have the whole family tree there.

I've been a guitarist since '73 and didn't really start fooling around with keys in earnest until the Kronos. I got a nice desk and put it in the living room because the idea was to have it there so that any time I walked by, I would put fingers on keys. I had initially thought of an upright acoustic, but between tuning, weight for moving, and price I figured I'd be better off with a good 88 key synth. The Kronos has certainly delivered in that regard. It's a good sounding piano, which is a gotta have, and then it does so much more.



I bought a Prophet 6 to learn synths, but realized that I didn't enjoy sound design as much as playing, so that became the Fantom. Originally it was to the right in an L to the Kronos, all midi'd up. I intentionally got the Fantom 7 to have synth action keys as my chops are still not good and synth action points out my sloppy technique. However, while I would play the Fantom sounds, I wasn't playing the keyboard because any time I sat down, my fingers wanted the 88 on the Kronos.

When I got the Montage, I moved the Fantom down to the studio control room. I also have my JV-2080 in the console, so that's pretty much Roland-land. I've probably played it more after moving it than I have since I got it, because now every time I'm in the studio it's right there, and it no longer has to compete with the Kronos. It's able to be a cool thing in its own right. Probably sounds dumb, but I find these little head games often make a significant difference in activity or productivity.



The Montage scratched two particular itches. One, admittedly, was just shiny object syndrome, aka GAS. The other was the fact that the laptop on the Kronos desk was okay to fire up Cubase and play along or press record, but the moment I actually had to do something in Cubase it was not comfortable at all. So, I found myself avoiding it. There's no real way to have a musical keyboard and a qwerty keyboard both in the optimal position. No matter what you done, one's going to be awkward.

I make a living as a software developer, so my office is optimized for the computer. My desire was to have a good instrument there that I could track with and work on Cubase in a way that was hopefully good for both. It turned out that putting it on the wall behind my chair was perfect. When I want to focus on playing, I drag the keyboard bench out from under the credenza. However, when I'm going back and forth between Cubase and the keys, I literally just spin my office chair 180 and I'm in the perfect position to play or work on the computer. This was a huge workflow improvement.

I didn't want to move the Kronos in here because I like having it always available when I walk past it in the living room. My office space is a place I have to go to in order to do a thing (work, audio, video). The living room gets traversed from all directions.

The Montage has built in Cubase integration, but all I really cared about was navigation since my back is to the computer. So, I set up a midi remote panel for begin / end prev / next marker, prev / next bar, and undo / redo on the 8 buttons in addition to the standard transport stuff that's already there. I bring up a project in Cubase, spin around to the M, and just press play / record. If I need to do Cubase stuff, I spin the chair, do the thing, then spin back around.

Honestly, even if the M wasn't as cool as it is (and it is), this would be worth the price of admission. I got rid of all my plugins and use only native Cubase ones, so I didn't want just a controller - then I'd have to deal with more software. I wanted a good workstation to cover all the kinds of sounds I need, and the M is delivering in that regard. The keybed on the M8x is fabulous, and I track midi, so if I want a sound from the Kronos or Fantom, I just go to that station to render what I track in the office.



And yes, I fully realize that this is all quite excessive and unnecessary, but at the moment I'm single and can get away with it. We take our little trade offs wherever we can.

[Mike Conway]

Chris, that is a beautiful setup!!!

[ChrisDuncan]

Now all I need is musical talent.

When I was a teenager I obsessed over guitar (as teenagers do), played it all the time, and got chops relatively fast. I worked as lead singer / guitarist / front man.

Keys is something that I've always wanted to do but didn't get serious about in terms of chops until fairy recently. Having nice toys is great motivation, because they really want to be played.

As I get into to working on songs I write on keys I'm beginning to realize that I need at least basic sound design skills, because even with 100,000 presets at my disposal, they're never the exact thing I hear in my head when composing.

I've always been in awe of guys like you who can deep dive into all these synths and create killer sounds. You certainly have no shortage of horsepower for that!

[HardSync]

You folks are making my synth envy gene twitch something fierce, and I have way too much gear as it is. Now that the Nautilus has aftertouch models, it's a much more compelling option than it was before (ditto the latest Wavestate keyboard models). Still the control surfaces as implemented on the Kronos, OASYS and even the M3 would be sorely missed.

I won't pretend to know all of the ins and outs of synth manufacturing or even marketing. I do know that most companies that aren't named Behringer tend to keep their R&D on the hush-hush. So who knows what Korg will develop next? I do wonder how the younger generation of musicians perceive workstations when it seems that many prefer to use computers and plug-ins exclusively. All they need is a controller and they don't even need that.

Chris, I get that you're a little disappointed with Korg not releasing a new, high-powered flagship workstation as an upgrade to the Kronos. Assuming your Kronos doesn't suffer any major faults, it should give you many long years of joy just as it is. I tend to view these things as investments; it is never about having the latest models for me. I like to eek out every last bit of my workstations before getting newer models. It is true, however, that the technologies improve or change.

I personally think what's missing though is a lack of licensed 3rd party upgrades to most hardware synths these days. Maybe there isn't much interest in it, or it's too costly or unprofitable, or the fees for licensing or software restrictions are unworkable. For example, going way back to the Korg M1, there were a few companies offering upgrades. The M1s I owned had Invision's Plus 1 upgrades. Those kept my M1s serviceable well into the early 2000s -- they are still serviceable now to be fair. Apart from motherboard, processor and RAM upgrades, I'm not sure what else could be done to upgrade a Kronos. Maybe some new sound engines I suppose.

[Pedja]

I think Korg gave up on the WS. He left the fight to Yamaha and Roland. He most likely estimated that the WS time had passed. It is impossible that in so many years, 13 years to be exact, they could not make a successor to Kronos, I think they didn't even make a deliberate effort. AKAI made an interesting keyboard, but they made a mistake with the keyboard, limiting it to 5th octave, and very poor quality. In this way, he rejected keyboard players who expect much more. The sound library is very good, and many sets are better than similar ones on the Kronos (thanks to AIR), but the MPC Key suffered a debacle on the sales front, so the price went down and down (in America it was overnight for $500). In Europe it went from month to month. I don't think a further decline is possible, and AKAI has stopped updating the firmware since April, before that it did it every month. This is how a potentially very good instrument goes to waste. Sorry for this digression about AKAI, it's just that the Korg story prompted me to do so.

[ChrisDuncan]

Something Mike mentioned is, I think, at the heart of this. The Kronos and Nautilus are essentially an Oasys with the serial numbers filed off and some incremental improvements. As he said, they've been riding that pony for a long time now, and it's easy enough to see in his picture with the three screens each on on top of the next.

They're not the only ones who do this, of course. The Montage M is the same OS / UI as the Montage, and I suspect there may have been predecessors like the Oasys was for Korg.

And Roland. Geez, I do love the Roland sound, but these guys have been repackaging and reselling the same synths (Jupiter, Juno, etc.) over and over and over again. But as far as workstations go, I'm sure that the Fantom is also an ancestor's operating system with feature tweaks and maybe a fresh coat of paint.

When we talk about a new product, we're often thinking of something designed from the ground up. And wouldn't that be cool? But they have a ton of code in these operating systems that they don't want to write again from scratch.

Think of Windows. First it was just a program running on top of DOS, and had incremental changes. Then it evolved into an operating system in its own right, but new versions were incremental changes. Then they rewrote the OS from the ground up (Windows NT), but everything since then has been, you guessed it, incremental changes.

Reinventing the wheel is risky, but most of all, it's expensive.

I'd love to see something truly innovative in the workstation category, but for the life of me I can't imagine what that might be. They all do pretty much everything that can be done, with minor differences.

At least Yamaha put out some new hardware. Roland just updated the operating system. And while Mike's right about the Nautilus benefiting from newer tech for the hardware, it's both a step forward and a step back from the Kronos. So nobody's really setting the world on fire with something revolutionary.

So maybe Pedja has it right. Perhaps of the three, Korg looked at the situation and decided they've ridden this pony as far as it can be ridden, so why spend time and money on a major hardware upgrade?

And as HardSync said, I too look at this as a long term investment. I've had the Kronos since 2018 and unless it suffers a fatality I can't imagine ever getting rid of it. Why would I? I doesn't do less just because I have newer toys. It's still an awesome display of music and tech creativity. I still have guitars I bought in the 80s and 90s. Just because something is old doesn't mean it's no longer valuable (that's what I tell people now that I'm old).

[Derek Cook]

I agree that the Nautilus is a downgrade, which is why I have stuck with my 10 year old Kronos X-61 as it has all I need - especially the control surface and KARMA.

It is now paired with a Montage M7 (a significant upgrade from my Montage 7), which is a great upgrade - especially the AN-X engine.

AL-1 will still give AN-X a run for its money of course.

[ChrisDuncan]

When I bought my Kronos in 2018, I considered both the Fantom and the Montage. Both fine keyboards, but my assessment at the time was that the Kronos was best of breed.

I now own a Fantom and a Montage M. If I was making my decision today, the M would make it harder. Unfortunately, having them both now, I wouldn't want to give up either.

Derek, I don't know if it's the same for the synth action models that you have as I've never played the Kronos synth keybed, but the velocity and dynamic sensitivity on the M8x is on a completely different level than the Kronos 88.

I'm currently working on a song that's just a Steinway and vocals. Once I've finished tracking I'm going to render it on the Kronos and see if I get more dynamics out of the German Grand based on the midi that the M8x generates. I know some of the limitations are in how the German Grand was sampled, but I also understand that there are limitations / design decisions in the Kronos keybed's velocity settings, so it will be interesting to see the result of that test.

That said, I agree that the Montage M is great. Yamaha seems to have made the most improvements on their latest flagship upgrade. Can't imagine being without the Kronos, but the M is a very worthwhile addition.

[kronoSphere]

Hello Mike Conway,

You wrote : "Next year might be time."

Sure ???



♫

[Mike Conway]

Hello Mike Conway,

You wrote : "Next year might be time."

Sure ???

Hi, kronoSphere. No, I'm not sure. Just a guess.

When the OASYS came out, there was nothing close to it. Yamaha and Roland were clearly inspired by it and Kronos. Now, the shiny UI designs of the Montage M and Fantom have surpassed the recent Korgs. I can't see Korg sitting idle for 5 more years.

I still think the Nautilus does more than the Yamaha and Roland, at half the price. But, the look of those two. Wow.

[kronoSphere]

Thanks for your answer Mike,
II asked you that question because my 13 years old Kronos 88 will not last forever now, and I was thinking about buying a Nautilus.
But your answer makes me think that I still can wait for some big news !

♫