User Review: First impressions of Pa2x

Discussions relating to the Korg Pa2X Pro, Pa800 & Pa500

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Rob Sherratt
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User Review: First impressions of Pa2x

Post by Rob Sherratt »

As some of you know, just last week I took delivery of a Pa2x including the optional VIF4 board. Here are my first impressions, comparing the Pa2x with the Pa1x Pro which I've had for some time.

Physical
The Pa2x is smaller (10 cm shorter) and lighter (by 1.5 kg) than the Pa1x Pro. Whereas the Pa1x pro struggled to fit in my Gator 76 key trolley bag, the Pa2x fits very easily. The Pa2x is narrower and only 10 cm longer than the Pa800. It looks fantastic - the white satin finish and wooden end panels are very smart.

Display
The display screen is much more readable from a normal playing position, I like the adjustable angle. The display was not as sharp as the display on my Pa1x, there seems to be a problem with text and graphics causing "smearing" and "shadowing" on adjacent rows of the display. Adjusting the contrast and viewing angle did not help. I do not know if this is a problem with my particular Pa2x or whether they are all like it. The VIF4 board fitted to my Pa2x is able to propagate the small display and magnify it for viewing on an external 19 inch monitor. There was no problem with "smearing" on the external monitor. This is fantastic for 50-yr-old myopics like me. :-)

Keys
The keys on the Pa2x are superior to those on the Pa1x Pro, they have a more solid feel and are more progressive in action. The "feel" of a Pa2x is more like playing a classical piano with weighted keys and damped action, whereas the "feel" of the Pa800 is more like a traditional electronic organ.

Sounds
The new "Grand Piano RX" sound - available only on the Pa2x currently - is from Korg's flagship C720 concert piano. This sound is one of the best I've heard and beats the famous "Reuben Set" of piano sounds and samples which previously were the state of the art on my Pa1x Pro. Notes played with the sustain pedal "on" resonate just like notes played on my Bluthner concert grand. The only thing missing with the Pa2x's grand piano is that you have to press the sustain pedal before playing the notes in order for string resonance to kick in. Whereas on a "real piano" you can play and hold a chord, depress the sustain pedal afterwards and the string resonance will kick in. This doesn't happen on the Pa2x (or on most other electronic pianos).

Also, among the Electric Piano bank there is a new "Tine E.Piano RX" sound which is far superior to any of the electric pianos in the factory set on the Pa1x Pro. It is very expressive, and the sound's pan position appears to be triggered on velocity. Anyway it gives a nice effect that I hadn't heard before on any sounds on the Pa1x.

Equaliser
My home in Corfu has a high 30 ft ceiling - there is even a tree in the middle of the house - and so the accoustics are a bit like a concert hall. I found that in this setting, the Pa2x sounds when played through my studio monitor speakers were over emphasising the bass and the high frequencies were rather dull. So I was grateful for the new 3 band overall equaliser, which I quickly enabled, and dialed in +3 dB of treble boost and -3 dB of bass cut, leaving midrange at 0 dB.

OS and MR Upgrade
I was mindful of the experience of other users of Pa2x OS1.0 where there is known to be a memory leak problem when loading or editing sample sounds, which corrupts the flash eprom memory and can cause the keyboard to lock up. Hence before doing any sampling, I upgraded to Pa2x OS1.1 and Musical Resources 1.1 which fix this problem. The total time to perform the upgrade was less than 4 minutes - a respectable improvement on the Pa1x Pro which used to take 10 to 15 minutes to perform an upgrade.

Vocal Harmoniser
I looked at the Vocal Harmony presets and realized that my favourite harmony preset on the Pa1x called "Staying Put 4 Now" was missing. So I created my own version, setting the gender parameters for the three harmony voices to +5 which is "slightly Male" and the harmony settings to "up 1", "up 2", and "up 3". This means that if I sing say a "G" and the chord is A minor then the harmony will be the A, C and E notes above the G note I am singing. I have a bass voice and have to trasnpose most songs down by three semitones which can make the arrangement a bit growly. So I found these overlaid higher pitched voices to be the best harmony settings for me. I saved the new preset as number 40, "Rob's harmony".

I think the Harmoniser on the Pa2x sounds better than on the Pa1x pro. It is quicker at synthesising the harmony notes and there is imperceptible delay. I recorded a number of MP3 songs with vocal harmonies and styles and fills and variations. The recordings all sounded better to me than ones I had done earlier on the Pa1x pro for the same songs. My vocals are not up to the standard of the choir members at Holy Trinity, and I certainly wont get a recording contract. However the MP3 recording facility and the Harmoniser are very useful tools as I work out arrangements and accompaniments for the choir members.

Configuration
There were a number of Global setup changes I needed to make to suit my style of playing. I am primarily a pianist and so prefer the "full keyboard" chord scanning option, with advanced chord recognition. I locked these settings so style changes will not override them. I also selected the option to auto select the last sound, performance or style from each bank. This means I can just touch a style, sound or performance button while playing and the style or sound will instantly change to the last one selected from that bank. I edited the performances for "Grand Piano RX" and "Tine E Piano RX" to use I3 strings on track 3 and Rock Organ GM transposed +1 octave on track 2. I carefully balanced the volume for each track so I could switch between the two performances while playing without any glitches on volume. I like to alternate between Grand Piano and Electric Piano for different verses. I increased the chorus FXD send level for the pianos slightly because I prefer a thicker piano sound than the default. I set the Fill Mode for Fill1 Fill2 and Fill3 so that they Select Var1, Var2 and Var3 automatically. I never have time to press two buttons when I want a break! I then saved the new performances to their original locations. My new settings for "Grand Piano RX" are now automatically selected when the keyboard powers up. I also saved the Global Style Preferences for the Fill Mode changes I had made.

That just about completed my preparation for using the Pa2x Pro. I am currently starting to load additional user resources such as extra styles. I like the new "favourite style" implementation on the Pa2x a lot. It replaces the old "Direct HD" implementation on the Pa1x. It's better because I can now name each bank exactly as I choose. I'm currently on the trawl for some good traditional "Light Rock" styles to supplement the "Rock" section on the Pa2x which is a bit too heavy for me!

Guitar Mode
I was very keen to try out the new "Guitar Mode" on the Pa2x (which has been available on the Pa800 since OS1.50). I hoped to find several good "Light Rock" and "Bossanova" and "Jazz" styles making use of this. The first problem was that it's not immediately obvious which (if any) of the factory styles use Guitar mode backings. In Style Play mode I couldn't find any track status display to indicate whether a track is operating in "Guitar Mode" or not. You have to go into the murky depths of Style Editing. I tried editing several styles only to find that none of the tracks playing guitar sounds were operating in "guitar mode". I was disappointed. I hope that Korg will issue an update to the factory styles that incorporates "guitar mode" in the future, and that the documentation will make it clear which styles implement "guitar mode". Also we need to have a different colour or something in the track display to indicate when a guitar sound is being triggered in "guitar mode" by the style track. "Guitar Mode" has a lot of unrealized potential in my view, and I do not understand why Korg are not capitalizing on this new feature in the Pa keyboards as they should.

Closing Remarks
There have been mixed reports on this forum concerning the Pa2x. Many of the bad experiences stem from the memory leak bug in OS1.0 when using sampling facilities. The good news is that this major problem appears to be fixed in OS1.1. From my limited experience of just 4 days' ownership, my Pa2x has been 100% reliable despite my probing every area that caused problems in OS1.0. I prefer the look and feel of the Pa2x compared with the Pa1x Pro. The sounds are better. There is sufficient memory for several year's expansion of new facilities, new styles and sounds. The introduction of the Pa2x in my opinion places Korg streets ahead of Yamaha and Roland for people who want the best sounding arranger/sampler keyboard on the market. Is there room for improvement? Yes, the styles and the OS should be enhanced to better promote and make accessible the new "guitar mode" features. And of course we need better facilities on a PC to be able to load and merge and organise styles and sounds and samples being imported from other sources.
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Re: User Review: First impressions of Pa2x

Post by Tascone »

Rob Sherratt wrote:Here are my first impressions, comparing the Pa2x with the Pa1x Pro which I've had for some time.
Hi, Rob!

Thanks for taking the time to send us your well worth reading Pa2X-Review.
It was really interesting to hear your impressions about this KB after all those “...” reports concerning freezing experiences, OS upgrading problems, etc, that people send in to this forum for the last months. Hope that Korg will keep provide new upgrades in the future, so users can really take advantage and benefit the whole potential of this fine KB.

//Tascone.
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Post by keyboard »

Nice Job Rob....

An honest opinion that was not professionally orchestrated...It was an informative read, from the start to the end...I do look forward to receiving mine shortly...

I am very pleased that you have addressed the "Guitar" inadequacies. If past history repeats itself again, I am confident that Korg will embellish the "Guitar" Mode to a state that will be unique, when compared to others..

A question if I am allowed......Has the Style creating concept changed from the PA1X PRO ?
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Re: User Review: First impressions of Pa2x

Post by rikkisbears »

Hi Rob,
don't know if it will help. In the upgrade manual for 1.51 page 11 for the PA800,there's a list of the styles I believe Korg upgraded to take into account the new guitar mode. Maybe the styles are the same in both keyboards. You do still have to go into edit mode to check it out properly. I did notice with the styles I checked myself ( which wasn't very many) that they used guitars with names like "Real Nylon or Real Steel etcetc.


best wishes
Rikki

[quote="Rob Sherratt"]
[
[
Guitar Mode
I was very keen to try out the new "Guitar Mode" on the Pa2x (which has been available on the Pa800 since OS1.50). I hoped to find several good "Light Rock" and "Bossanova" and "Jazz" styles making use of this. The first problem was that it's not immediately obvious which (if any) of the factory styles use Guitar mode backings. In Style Play mode I couldn't find any track status display to indicate whether a track is operating in "Guitar Mode" or not. You have to go into the murky depths of Style Editing. I tried editing several styles only to find that none of the tracks playing guitar sounds were operating in "guitar mode". I was disappointed. I hope that Korg will issue an update to the factory styles that incorporates "guitar mode" in the future, and that the documentation will make it clear which styles implement "guitar mode". Also we need to have a different colour or something in the track display to indicate when a guitar sound is being triggered in "guitar mode" by the style track. "Guitar Mode" has a lot of unrealized potential in my view, and I do not understand why Korg are not capitalizing on this new feature in the Pa keyboards as they should.
best wishes
Rikki

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Post by worth »

Hi rob. I know this is a tough question to answer but i'll ask it anyway !

Comparing a fully expanded PA1X to the Pa2x

1. how much better are the internal sounds on a like for like basis ?
2. What instruments are markedly better on the 2X compared to the 1X ?
3. How many more RX type sounds are there compared to the PA1X ?
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Re: User Review: First impressions of Pa2x

Post by Rob Sherratt »

rikkisbears wrote:In the upgrade manual for 1.51 page 11 for the PA800, there's a list of the styles I believe Korg upgraded to take into account the new guitar mode. Maybe the styles are the same in both keyboards. You do still have to go into edit mode to check it out properly. I did notice with the styles I checked myself (which wasn't very many) that they used guitars with names like "Real Nylon or Real Steel etc.
Hi Rikki,

Thanks very much for steering me in this direction. Yes, these styles are also present on the Pa2x and they do use Guitar Mode. It becomes very evident when playing Variation 3 of these styles, but not so pronounced in variations 1 and 2. Also your tip about the "Real xxxx" guitars being designed for Guitar mode is excellent. I was easily able to identify and solo these tracks from the real time display screen. I think the sections headed "Revised Styles" and "New Guitar Sounds" should have been included in the Pa2x user guide in a new section headed "Playing Guitar Mode Styles". In case anyone else wants to check this out we are talking about the section headed "Musical Resources" in the upgrade guide which Korg posted here:

http://www.korgpa.com/pa_root/pdf/pa800 ... G-EFGI.pdf

Also I would still like to see a more direct graphical indicator for "guitar mode" tracks when in style play mode - perhaps a different colour could be used for the note on/off indicator in the track view screen. I like the new function whereby the notes playing within a style cause an indicator to flash on this screen. This function was not present on the Pa1x and it was sometimes difficult to work out which track within a style was playing which notes.

Anyway, having with your help now identified which styles have guitar mode tracks, I reviewed all these styles - especially playing Variation 3 and Fill 2 and Fill 3. I think the guitar mode has added a lot of "humanity" to the guitar sounds in these styles. This is a very worthwhile improvement compared with the equivalent styles on the Pa1x in which the guitar tracks now sound "mechanistic" by comparison. I hope that Korg will continue to update the factory styles on the Pa800 and Pa2x to replace the older guitar sounds with new "guitar mode" tracks. Also I'd like to suggest to Korg that the bass guitar tracks in most styles would sound much better if Korg were to "humanise" them with the new "Humanise Gtr" function which again was not present on the Pa1x, and also if "RX" noises were added.
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Post by Rob Sherratt »

worth wrote:Hi rob. I know this is a tough question to answer but i'll ask it anyway !

Comparing a fully expanded PA1X to the Pa2x

1. how much better are the internal sounds on a like for like basis ?
2. What instruments are markedly better on the 2X compared to the 1X ?
3. How many more RX type sounds are there compared to the PA1X ?
Hi Worth,

My Pa1x Pro is fully loaded with the 32 Mb Piano sound set from John (Reuben) and Alex (Galouetille). As I said in the review I was very impressed with the "Grand Piano RX" and "Tine E.Piano RX" on the Pa2x and I think that with samples of this quality including resonance effects when you press the sustain pedal, there is no need to load any user samples because I do not think they can be improved. The only room for improvement I can suggest to Korg is that if you hold a chord down and then press the sustain pedal, the currently playing damped samples should be dynamically switched to the undamped sample set with resonance. Then maybe I can get rid of my Bluthner Concert Grand :-)

The master EQ can be used to quickly remove any sound colouring and unwanted resonances from the environment you are playing in. This is a big improvement compared with the Pa1x. The style tracks sound sharper and more dynamic to my ears, and as I said in the reply to Rikki's message, the guitar mode styles when played in Variation 3 are a big improvement compared with the more mechanistic guitar tracks in the styles on the Pa1x.

The keys are a big improvement compared with the keys on the Pa1x pro, and this lends itself to improved dynamics and sensitivity when playing live.

Worth, if you want to come here and play the three pianos / Keyboards you will be most welcome. Mick will be here the middle two weeks in June and you can come even if only for a weekend if you like. I must now sign off and get back to populating your spreadsheet :-)
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Re: User Review: First impressions of Pa2x

Post by rikkisbears »

Hi Rob,
that's great. I'm glad it worked for your PA2X.
Actually if it hadn't been for the "Revised Styles" & Real Guitars section in the PA800 upgrade manual, I probably wouldn't have found which ones they were either. It would have taken an awful lot of time to go thru 300+ styles to try & find which ones did & didn't have it. Bit strange that Korg hasn't identified them in the PA2X manual. It's such an interesting function . Going to take some working out though. I loaded a couple of the tracks into a sequencer to try & make some some sense out of what was going on. Just makes me wish I knew a bit more about guitar playing ie when to strum up & when to strum down etc etc
You can also copy them into a pad.

Hope you enjoy your new PA2X as much as I do my PA800.

best wishes
Rikki

[quote="Rob Sherratt
Thanks very much for steering me in this direction. Yes, these styles are also present on the Pa2x and they do use Guitar Mode. It becomes very evident when playing Variation 3 of these styles, but not so pronounced in variations 1 and 2. Also your tip about the "Real xxxx" guitars being designed for Guitar mode is excellent. I was easily able to identify and solo these tracks from the real time display screen. I think the sections headed "Revised Styles" and "New Guitar Sounds" should have been included in the Pa2x user guide in a new section headed "Playing Guitar Mode Styles". In case anyone else wants to check this out we are talking about the section headed "Musical Resources" in the upgrade guide which Korg posted here:

http://www.korgpa.com/pa_root/pdf/pa800 ... G-EFGI.pdf
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Post by keyboard »

keyboard wrote:Nice Job Rob....


...Has the Style creating concept changed from the PA1X PRO ?
Any added nuggets?
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Post by kbrkr »

Rob,

I agree with your review. This is my first Korg arranger, although I have had Tritons in the past, I'm mostly a Yamaha Arranger guy having the Psr9000, Tyros, then Tyros 2. I recently sold the Tyros 2 and replaced it with the Pa2xpro because for me and my tastes it Rocks. I like it much better than the Tyros.

I agree on the fit and finish of the Pa2. It is a beautiful keyboard. I owned the M3 for a 3 weeks and loved that look. I sold the M3 because it did not have the value that I thought it would.

I agree, the Pa2 is probably the best arranger kb on the market right now. But, that may not last long with the release of the Ketron Audya and it's real Loop/Wave Style reproduction.

Al
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Post by Rob Sherratt »

kbrkr wrote:I agree, the Pa2 is probably the best arranger kb on the market right now. But, that may not last long with the release of the Ketron Audya and it's real Loop/Wave Style reproduction.
Hi Al,

Thank you. I've been playing around with "real loop/ wave" style reproduction using BiaB which has provided these functions for the last three years. The style librarian and editing functions in BiaB are superb. It's twenty times faster to create styles and backing tracks on BiaB than on the Pa2x. Rikki, Dreamer and I have solved some of the integration with the Pa1x/ Pa800/ Pa2x but there is still a way to go that would require software development from both companies. I think if Korg were to strike a deal with PG Music (the creators of BiaB) and support full integration with BiaB including the ability to download BiaB wave samples and all BiaB native file types, plus the ability to upload all Pa keyboard styles to BiaB for editing, then the combination product would leave all competition including Ketron standing in the pit lanes forever.
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Post by Rob Sherratt »

This follow-up to my Pa2x review applies both the the Pa800 (with OS1.51 and OS1.6) and the Pa2x (OS1.1) whose functionality on style creation is identical. The basic concepts for style creation and editing are similar to the Pa1x & Pa1x Pro. However there are several extra facilities when you use the Pa800 style format (which is not compatible with the Pa1x) that mean you can create nicer styles. I'll summarize these now:

a) More chord variants are recognised. .
Specifically 5b (flattened fifth chords) and dim7 chords.

b) The ability to set a track to "guitar mode" has been added.
With these special tracks you can create some very realistic sounding guitar backings with a "human" feel to them. You can strum chords "up" or "down" and the strumming can be muted or unmuted. You can determine whether the lowest string is a root note or a fifth. You can choose how many strings are in the chord. You can vary the velocity of the strumming from slow to normal to full speed. You can add fret noises. The older guitar tracks sound very mechanised by comparison. You can also edit guitar chords using guitar tablature with an on-screen fretboard if you wish.

c) New Note Transposition Rules for chords
You can control chord progressions in chord tracks better. This is achieved by using a new NTT parameter called "fixed" which causes the arranger in the Pa800/Pa2x moves as few notes as possible when transitioning from one chord to the next in response to your playing. This makes very smooth "legato feel" chord tracks suitable for organ, strings, piano backings etc. Tracks set with the "fixed" status sound much nicer than the equivalent tracks in a Pa1x style.

d) You can automatically (with a panpot) adjust the relative volume of RX Noises.
This applies only to tracks assigned to an RX type sound, obviously. This was not possible to do on the Pa1x, you had to edit every RX note event which is not really feasible.

e) You can automatically (with a panpot) adjust the "humanize" level for Guitar mode tracks.
What this does is to introduce a degree of slight randomness to the timing of strummed and picked guitar notes. I like the setting about halfway.

f) Guitar mode tracks can be assigned to Pads.

g) You can modify any MIDI file so that RX noises are automatically assigned to tracks with GM guitar sounds.
This is done in song edit mode, but can be used on MIDI files you are importing to make them into Styles. You can also adjust the relative volume of RX noises compared with the normal guitar notes. You can also save the RX notes to a separate track so that they become Midi notes that could in theory be played on another instrument that supports RX noises.

h) At least 120 styles have been modified by Korg so they are now "Pa800" mode styles.
"Guitar mode" tracks and RX noises have been added to these styles Some styles have also been modified so that the chord tracks use the new "fixed" progression capability. .

i) There is a new "master EQ" capability
This means the overall frequency response of a Pa800 or Pa2x can be fine tuned to suit the accoustics of the room and speakers you are using.

Compatibility of Pa800 format styles
Styles created to take advantage of the new facilities are automatically saved as "Pa800" format. They can neither be loaded nor easily converted for use on the Pa1x nor any other first generation Pa keyboards. Styles created in "Pa800" format can be used on the Pa2x, Pa800, Pa500 and Pa588. There is one proviso for the Pa500 and Pa588, which is that you can not use user styles which require/ attempt to load user sampled sounds.

Suggestions for the future
With the new facilities available on the Pa2x and Pa800 I was surprised that there remain many styles (over 200 on the Pa2x and over 280 on the Pa800) which do not currently make use of the new facilities. I hope that all styles will be converted to use the new facilitie sin future.

Also I could not find any bass guitar tracks in any styles that use "guitar mode". This is a shame because it would sound great if bass lines could have RX noises added and if they could be "humanised" to soften some bass guitar accompaniments that sound rather mechanised. However I think that to do this, it would be necessary to have some additional "Real Bass Guitar" and "Real Double Bass" sounds to compliment the other "Real Guitar" sounds that are new on the latest Pa arrangers. I am sure this will happen in due course, maybe in future relases of the Factory Musical Resources.
Last edited by Rob Sherratt on Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by rikkisbears »

Hi Rob,
I had been doing some experimenting with using the BIAB wav drum loops in my PA800 for use in styles. For the PA800 maybe not feasible. A 1 bar drumloop was approx 1mb. 1 bar is rather repetative, so if I have 4 bars per variation, I'm up to 16 mb's & that's without fills , intro's & endings.
I've decided to, (once I get around to it ) is to use any loops a bit more
along the lines of what my ketron sd1 does, use a mix of audio loops & midi drums, ie have a simple loop like brush drum swishes ( which a lot of keyboards don't do well with midi) & add additional drums to the percussion track to vary the rhythm, so virtually I'd be able to use the same audio loop in all 4 variations etc & the differences between the 4 variations is added by the midi drums.
I'd sort of prefer to keep my loops loaded all the time rather than having to try & load 16mb's everytime I want to change a style.

Finally sort of worked out what to do with BIAB as far as converting some of the styles across to the PA800.
Quickest method unfortunately requires the use of EMC's Song to Style
conversion tool.
Takes something like 2 to 5 minutes to type in the chords fills etc into BIAB & save as a Midifile.
Then anything from 10 minutes & up to turn the midifile into a style in EMC's Song to Style function. The time is spent fine tuning the settings & auditioning the style parts.

Without EMC it's taking longer. Each of the style parts have to be saved as individual midifiles in BIAB & imported into the PA800 seperately.

If Korg actually had software like EMC's Song to Midifile function, would make things easier.

Ketron's actually gone a step further , audio loops of some instruments like guitars, not just drum audio loops..

best wishes
Rikki
Rob Sherratt wrote:
I've been playing around with "real loop/ wave" style reproduction using BiaB which has provided these functions for the last three years. The style librarian and editing functions in BiaB are superb. It's twenty times faster to create styles and backing tracks on BiaB than on the Pa2x. Rikki, Dreamer and I have solved some of the integration with the Pa1x/ Pa800/ Pa2x but there is still a way to go that would require software development from both companies. I think if Korg were to strike a deal with PG Music (the creators of BiaB) and support full integration with BiaB including the ability to download BiaB wave samples and all BiaB native file types, plus the ability to upload all Pa keyboard styles to BiaB for editing, then the combination product would leave all competition including Ketron standing in the pit lanes forever.
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Post by Rob Sherratt »

Bumped up the list so Steve M can find it!
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