CAN RADIAS REPLACE A Z1?

keyboard komuso · Post by **keyboard komuso** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:19 pm

Greetings all. I'm new to the forum. Been a devoted Korg user for over 20 years. I just picked up a Radias. Honest first impression - I find the sound a bit thin and overall rather uninspiring. I think my MS2000 has more character. I'm experienced enough to know however that I need to dig into this machine before drawing any conclusions. I LOVE Korg sounds so am going to give it some time before making my decision on returning it. I am what I call an "ethno ambient" composer, combining synth textures with ethnic flutes and primitive percussion. I was looking for something to give me rich evolving fluid pads. I thought about the Z1 but decided on the Radias. Anyone have any advice on this? Would I be better off with a Z1 or will the Radias, with a little work, give me the rich textures I am hoping for and more! My main pad machine right now is my Trinity wich I love and will never part with. I've never played the Z1 but have heard it excels at pads. But is it limited due to it's age? Thanks in advance for any advice you have to offer.

the auracle · Post by **the auracle** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:17 pm

sounds like the presets on the radias aren't meeting your specific needs.

try downloading these presets, as well as the other ones linked to in this forum. you will most likely find what you're looking for.

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:54 pm

How many patches have you actually created on the Radias? If you've only used the presets then that is entirely your problem.

Radias is a toolkit, not an end result. If you can't do rich, thick pads on the Radias, the problem is due to your limitations, not the synth. Presets are the end result of someone else's work. It's not the job of hardware to inspire you. That comes from within. Don't blame the brushes and paint if you have no skill painting. It doesn't really matter much which synth you choose if you don't take the time and effort to learn how to use it with skill.

Replacing one set of presets for another won't do any good. You need to make YOURsets instead of using THEIRsets.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:11 am

The radias is brilliant for making deep, rich, evolving pads. There is plenty of modulation on offer, if you're familiar with the ms2000 then the radias is a logical step upwards. with 6 virtual modulation slots, four timbres, insert effects per timbre, ability to choose the kind of oscillator modulation.
Not so familier with the Z1 but I think the radias has a similar architecture in some respects (is MOSS based on Z1?), but I think you get more polyphony out of the radias, which is great for making nice thick chords...

xmlguy is also right that you really have to have your own unique sound, and the thing with these synths is to go away and make your own from scratch. But others can help to inspire, and can provide a basis for further tweaking. Ideally i'd blank every patch when I get a synth like the radias (After playing with it maybe once or twice), and get to grips programming, after your tenth program or so you'll get a great feel for the depth of this unit.

if you like more patches, I have a link in my topic further back on this board for some patches. I do a lot of pads and ambient progressive electronica, progressive rock etc so you may find some ideas there to help you.

botega · Post by **botega** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:38 am

and if you get rid of your R, you'll miss the whole freakin light show lol!

keyboard komuso · Post by **keyboard komuso** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:22 pm

Thanks, X Trade, I'll check out the link. I was looking for some advice from someone who may have the Z1 as well, however, the more time I spend with the Radias, the better I like it. Already created half a dozen pads. The first preset to go was A01

!!! I think the Radias will give me what I'm looking for, the deeper I delve into it.

Timo · Post by **Timo** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:16 pm

The short answer: Yes and No, it depends on your angle.

The long answer:

Z1 has 12 voice polyphony as standard, but it is upgradable to 18 voices with an expansion card. If you add this expansion, then the polyphony becomes quite similar to the Radias (the Radias has a maximum voice count of 24, but loses polyphony when waveshaping or comb-filtering etc. is used.)

Z1 has 2 oscillators + 1 customisable sub, Radias has 2 oscillators and a sub-osc is only available when waveshaping is used (eating 1 extra note of poly).

Radias has extensive modulation sequencing (3 mod sequencers) and step sequencing (2 step seqs), Z1 has neither. Both Radias and Z1 have programmable arpeggiators, though.

Radias has audio inputs for processing external audio through the whole Radias engine (modulation sequencing, filtering, amp, effects, etc.), and has a very capable 16-band vocoder. The Z1 has none of this.

Radias is 4-part multitimbral and has 4 analogue outputs.
Z1 is 6-part multitimbral, but only has 2 analogue outputs (however, I believe there is an ADAT expansion card that ups this, not sure how many outputs it gives, 4, at a guess, like the Trinity's ADAT option?).

Z1 has standard analogue, oscillator sync, cross-modulation, ring modulation, comb filtering, VPM (Variable Phase Modulation = FM), and the physical modelling consists of brass (6 models), reed (17 models), plucked, resonance modelling, electric pianos, organ (3 drawbars per oscillator), and bowed strings.

Radias has standard analogue, oscillator sync, ring-mod, cross-mod, comb-filtering, fixed/basic VPM, formants, drums, DWG/PCMs, unison oscillator (stacks 5 detunable saws/sqs/tri/sin using just 1 note poly), and audio inputs.

Z1 has a few, limited effects. Radias has shed loads - similar to the Triton's effects. The Radias also benefits from waveshaping (selectable to function either pre- or post-filter), including analogue-style saturation/drive.

Radias is easily editable, and also has a lovely GUI accessible on your computer. Z1 is "head-in-the-sub-menus-and-press-lots-of-buttons" land.

Z1 has 4 assignable LFOs, 4 assignable ADTSR EGs + 1 dedicated Amp EG (5 in total).
Radias has 2 dynamic LFOs (you can modulate/waveshape the LFOs, similar to PWM and the like), and 1 ADSR filter EG + 1 ADSR Amp EG + 1 assignable ADSR EG (3 in total). The Radias' EGs also benefit from selectable curves.

It's surprising though, the Z1 and the Radias do actually sound very different, even though they share many similar aspects. To my subjective ears, the Radias is brighter, more airy, modern, has more headroom (the signal doesn't clip so much at high resonances), and the multi-timbral effects work well. On the other hand, the Z1's EGs appear to be sonically punchier/deeper for filter EG use and the like.

Radias has a pitch wheel and mod wheel for hands-on control. The keyboard is velocity sensitive. However, you can modulate the Radias from other external MIDI controllers.
The Z1 is extremely well specified in the inbuilt controller department. It has pitch and mod wheels, an XY pad, several assignable knobs, and a velocity and aftertouch sensitive keyboard. If only all synths had these!

Conclusion: If you want a modern, workstation-like synthesiser for building up all aspects of songs, including drums, and offers modulation and step sequencing, vocoding, audio inputs, loads of effects, slightly higher polyphony, more audio outputs, and an integrated computer GUI via USB, then go Radias.

If you want a standalone synthesiser that's more specific to synthesis and physical modelling, that is deeper than the Radias for virtual-analogue usage (hence a steeper learning curve and being harder to program), but lacks: audio inputs, drums, PCMs, vocoding, and has limited audio outputs effects, then go Z1.

Unless you really want the physical modelling of the Z1, I personally think it's Radias all the way. IMHO, it's just a shame about the lack of hands-on controllers of the Radias compared with the Z1.

That said, you mentioned you make acoustic type stuff, so a Z1 may not be a bad choice for its physical modelling. The Z1 creates very nice ambient flutes/pipes (particularly when using a breath controller), and plucked strings and the like. I think for ethnic percussion sounds you might be best using sample CDs, though?

My advice would be to perhaps grab a MOSS-TRI expansion card for your Trinity if you can find one (either on ebay, or here on the Korg Forums Buy & Sell forum section). The Trinity has great effects (much better than the Z1), and the MOSS would be able to take advantage of them. The only problem is that the MOSS board for Trinity is mono-timbral (you can only play one Moss patch at a time), and is limited to 6 voices of polyphony (as opposed to the Z1's 12, or 18 when expanded).

keyboard komuso · Post by **keyboard komuso** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:32 am

Wow, Timo! Thanks so much for the extensive info! That's what I was hoping for. I really appreciate you taking the time. After reading your post (quite a few times to take it all in!) I think I'm sticking with the Radias. More powerful unit with deeper possibilties. Of course down the line I could always get a Z1 as well!

Yes, I love my Trinity. That's one board that will never leave my studio. I was lucky enough to get it new, one of the last before it was discontinued. The MOSS board is a great idea, though you're right, they are few and far between. I use a mix of samples and live percussion. If you ever have a moment, my site is
http://www.kieranshannon.com/
Just about done with "In fields of night", my first full album. The Trinity shows up quite a bit, though a lot of the pads are also done using Spectrasonics Atmosphere. Thanks again for the info!

hermanni · Post by **hermanni** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:43 pm

As an ex owner of Z1 i must disagree. You're talking about oscillators but forgetting that Z1 has *physical* models of many instruments which is practically impossible to replicate with Radias. Even if you have multiple oscillators, filters, lfos etc you don't have a physical model of a string/wind instrument which calculates all the resonances of the body and models the movement of the bow/lips etc.

Z1 is a completely different story and i simply love its programmability and versatility. don't dismiss it

Timo · Post by **Timo** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:53 pm

Agreed. If you get a MOSS-TRI for your Trinity you'd be covered (same engine as Z1 but half the poly), although oddly thesedays a Z1 often sells for less than a MOSS-TRI board!

Z1/MOSS can make some absolutely killer sounds, and Radias can't touch it for physical modelling stuff. Radias and Z1 sound so very different.

Looking back, one thing I forgot to mention is that both the Z1's two main oscillators have full-blown multi-oscillator synthesis functionality (apart from just a couple of oscillator models [out of the 13 oscillator types] that require the DSP of both).

Radias' Osc2, on the other hand, is heavily stunted - it's a barely functional oscillator compared to Radias' Osc1.

Whereas Radias' Osc1 has Formant, Noise, Synth PCMs (single-cycle samples), Drum PCMs, Audio In, Supersaw, Waveform modulation, Cross modulation, and VPM, along with the usual Saw, Pulse, Tri and Sin, the Radias' Osc2 has just Saw, Square (not even a modulatable pulse), Tri, and Sin, along with Ring Mod and Oscillator-Sync. Even the Z1's third oscillator (so-called "sub") can almost do everything that Radias' Osc2 can do (minus the ring and sync mod).